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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

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Old 13th August 2004, 05:56 PM   #1
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Default pa sub sat system

Hello.
Im planning to build a micro pa,in a 1 sub 2 sat configuration.
I want to use a smallish 15 sub in as tiny box i can design.
Then i want to build really small tops.
the whole thing will be biamped with active crossover for the sub and passive cross for the sats.
Now in order to keep the sats SMALL i need to find a fairly high crossover point for the sub.Thre will be NO bass in the tops.
In other words I want the xover as high as i possible can...
Do any of you have an idea abou how high i could cross,It depends on driver I know,but Im more concerned about how to retain a somewhat ....natural sound.
This is for a truly mobile mini dj rig by the way.
Any ideas?
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Old 13th August 2004, 07:27 PM   #2
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No bass in the tops and running to a high frequency in the sub is not a good idea; integration of the two will be most difficult. A reasonable crossover point from sub to main is around 100 Hz; going higher than that has directional frequencies that should be at ear level coming from a box down on the floor where they won't be properly dispersed. That's why you don't see speakers on the market that do it the way you propose.

As for a very small sub, the smaller you go the less bass you'll get, no matter what the speaker size. Real subwoofer response at pro-sound levels is not going to happen with much less than an 8 cubic foot box.

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Old 13th August 2004, 11:25 PM   #3
Andy G is offline Andy G  Australia
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Default how much power ????

this is always a question that needs to be answered. because generally the more power required, the higher the cost !! You need to figure what sort of music you will be using this for , what size venues, etc etc etc

If cost isn't too much of an issue, you could try modelling the Eminence Magnum 15HO. This driver should work well in a smallish box according to my calcs. One of the few drivers that will !! The Kappa 15 (pressed frame) will need about 5+ cuft, an ok size and is a lot cheaper.

As Bill says, to cross from sub to sat , any much higher than 100Hz, and you are starting to get into the human male vocal range !
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Old 14th August 2004, 02:59 AM   #4
sek is offline sek  Germany
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Quote:
an idea abou how high i could cross,It depends on driver I know
The possibility to cross over at higher frequencies doesn't have to do with the driver (as long as your choice of mid range driver is reasonable), but on the distance between sub and sats.

If they are placed directly next to each other, it could work. If they are distant, it won't. It's got to do with the wave length of the sound waves, radiated by both the sats and the sub at and around the crossover frequency. It is this frequency that has to have a wavelength far greater than the sub-sat distance.

I guess you want to do the standard application, sats left and right of the DJ rig, sub on the floor? That won't work with high crossover points. As already said, a little over 100Hz is the maximum.

This reminds me of the Syrincs S3 system, a very good design with 10" midrange and CD horn driver (both by RCF). That's the order of size, weight and driver choice you should start with for DJ use. A 12" midrange driver would be even better, but a good 10" can sound very good in that regard.

Sebastian.
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Old 14th August 2004, 03:36 AM   #5
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For a general purpose PA, you really don't need much lower than 60Hz, especially with club-music thump.

You also want the monitors to be highly directional so you won't always have to find a wall against which to place and also so that any mics not in the line of fire will be less likely to feed. And don't say that it will never be used for live sound... there are too many events where the host(ess) will want to make an announcement or give away a prize or even sing karaoke.

You also don't really need much higher than about 18kHz so you can pick your drivers for power handling, which they will need. Plan on needing at least 300WRMS for most situations, especially outdoors. Any less and you probably won't have enough volume to make it feel like a party.

So instead of deep, make it strong and if you use ports, make them front facing. Go for the most efficient to maximize what power you have... horns are really good for this.

Bill is right... just about all commercial systems are x-way monitors rather than 3 piece sub/sat. Study Community, EV and Mackie... they know what they are doing.

:)ensen.
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Old 14th August 2004, 03:38 AM   #6
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What's your budget? I think a better option would be a 2 speaker rig that goes low enough. Something like Adire's hurricane would rock. If you needed smaller, you could go sealed on the maelstrom's portion of the cab and go really small but sacrifice some low end extension.
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Old 14th August 2004, 08:25 PM   #7
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Default Followup and thanks and praise!

FIRST THANKS FOR KEEPING THIS FORUM THE BEST EVER!
Well heres my idea.
In order to get decent bass I need the bass speaker on the floor.
In order to play with some coverage,I need to get the highs above the crowd.
I am also doing this solo,and need to be able to lift and move all this in separate units by myself.
I know that the hurricane would sound awesome.But anyone who have been trying to log two of those around,know that this is not an easy to lift cabinet.Besides the Huricane is x-ed at 400 hz so the top wont separate from the bass,and will therfore not give coverage unless standing on a stage at earlevel.The ideas about 12s and horn is good,as long as you keep the levels low,or dont send bass into them.The active plastic Mackies have cutout every time I have played on them,because of the built in protection wich kicks in when there is too much input (read bass).
The hi-midrange on 15s with horns is usually poor,plus a well built cabinet for a 15 is not something a single person want to rig up in the air by him/herself.Anything up in the air will be lacking in lowbass,as you all know.
Im also not using microphones, extreme directivety is not what I want or need.Even coverage is my preference.
I have a few amps to my availability,so drivers and cabinets will be my only cost at this point.
Heres what i have been thinking of.
Sub- frontfiring eminance Magnum 15 ho for bass 45-120hz mono
Sat-Selenium 12 CO1P in a small sealed or vented cabinet. stereo
Now i really want to make this pakage smallish and lightish.
Thinking of making the tops out of glassfiber reinforsed styrofoam boxes (YES!Beercolers!)
I also have nutty ideas about a lightweight sub box,but this is a whole new thread in itself.
Now i have downloaded various programs and been trying to model boxes, but always feel unsure about the end result...
My aim is loudness and coverage as well as small and light.
High fidelity is not an issue.
Once again thank you all.
H H

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showd...number=264-390
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Old 14th August 2004, 09:32 PM   #8
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Reagrding the Hurricane, the mid/tweet unit could be separated from the woofer easily. For small and portable you could go sealed for the maelstrom's section and give up some low end extension and have a very small box for it.

If it was me and the $900 price for a pair was OK, I'd put the maelstrom in a 22" cube for setting up on the ground and put the 10" coax on a very small open baffle (for extra sweet vocals) up in the air above the bass units. With a 400hz cutoff, the baffle for the 10" unit would be mainly to have a way to mount it on site. Maybe even use something like a telescoping microphone stand tube for mounting it above the maelstrom cab.

If that's out of your price range and don't need the low extension of the maelstrom, then a pair of cheaper PA woofers xo'd at 400hz to the same 10" adire HE10.1's on OB's would work great too.
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Old 15th August 2004, 01:51 AM   #9
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Check out these:
http://www.billfitzmaurice.com/plans.../products_id/6

http://www.billfitzmaurice.com/plans.../products_id/5
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Old 15th August 2004, 02:19 AM   #10
sek is offline sek  Germany
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Quote:
The ideas about 12s and horn is good,as long as you keep the levels low,or dont send bass into them.


Just for the record Holger, I think you got me wrong on that!

When I suggested a 10" or 12" driver, I was clearly only speaking about the midrange. The Syrincs satellite box I suggested is a two way mid-high system, a set of two of them always gets accompanied by a couple of 15" or 18" woofers, of course.

Quote:
In order to get decent bass I need the bass speaker on the floor.
In order to play with some coverage,I need to get the highs above the crowd.
I am also doing this solo,and need to be able to lift and move all this in separate units by myself.
Sure, this is always neccessary. No DJ would elevate the bass boxes, put the tops on the floor or buy equipment he can't carry.

Quote:
The hi-midrange on 15s with horns is usually poor,plus a well built cabinet for a 15 is not something a single person want to rig up in the air by him/herself.Anything up in the air will be lacking in lowbass,as you all know.
I fully aggree on that. 12" should be the largest chassis diameter for the mid range. And besides that, we're talking about cost, weight and size, too. (Don't we? )

Quote:
Now i really want to make this pakage smallish and lightish.
Thinking of making the tops out of glassfiber reinforsed styrofoam boxes (YES!Beercolers!)
I also have nutty ideas about a lightweight sub box,but this is a whole new thread in itself.
That's a dream, though. Stick to wood until you know exactly what enclosure will fit your needs for years. The complexity and cost for a well-enough done glassfiber/epoxy enclosure is usually underestimated...

The good old plywood is a surprisingly good compromise, after all. It's about box volume, a small box made of plywood will be lightweight enough for the first time, while not costing you more than all the speakers and crossover parts together.

Bill,

In your first link, I hope those "tweeters" aren't piezos! And if so, how do they compare to the "original" Motorolas (as single)?
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