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Old 20th July 2004, 12:52 PM   #1
goskers is offline goskers  United States
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Lightbulb 3-way design options

Hi all,

I am going to try and design a very high quality 3way by using a pc as the digital xo. This is not where my questions lay though.

For the low end I am definitely going to use the TC Sounds TC2+. Wheter or not I use a pair in a sealed enclosure or 4 in a dipole arangement is up for debate. I like the impact and taughtness of the sealed but most have said that a dipole is more 'accurate' in the end. If room correction can be done in the digital domain as well then wouldn't it be easy to minimize the downsides to a sealed low end?

For the high end I am torn between the SS9800 and a ribbon like the Fountek JP2. Besides vertical dispersion being limited with the ribbon, what may be the typical differences in sound between a good true ribbon and high quality hard dome? Air, detail, subtleness....?

For the mid I am very intrigued by the PHL 1220. I have owned a couple of systems that use the seas mag excel but I am looking for something different. I have not seen anyone who has used the 1220 or 1230. All general reports from other PHL gear seems to be quite positive. If you do a google search for the 1230 you find a place that actually has measurements.
Aside from the 1220, I have not seen a whole lot of people that have used the Audax 170C series (carbon fiber cone) but general reports are also good. The HiVi M6a is another good canidate but then I am right back in the same boat with all the other mag cones.

If people could make some comments on my driver selection I would greatly appreciate it.

In addition to driver selection, I have some general questions about xo implementation. How do you create a seamless crossover to the mid from the woofer? Since all these drivers that I have listed have pretty darned good passband responses without a whole lot of nasties in the stopband areas that need to be looked at, I should have a great deal of frequency area to vary the xo point. Would xoing the woofer in the 300Hz area be better or would a point around the lower range of the mid be a better choice? I am not sure if there is a rule of thumb to this.

That should give us a good place to start for the moment.
Thanks and look forward to corresponding with all.

wasser
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Old 20th July 2004, 04:50 PM   #2
jholtz is offline jholtz  United States
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Default 3-way thoughts...

Hi Joel,

Sounds like quite a project you have in the works. Some thoughtsÖ

The TC Sounds 2+ sub should be excellent. Very, very similar to my AV-12ís. I wish I would have had them dialed in better and the phase switch set correctly the day you listened to them. It made a big difference tweaking them more. They now integrate seamlessly to my ears. Anyway, good choice.

Iíve heard the PHL 1120 in a 2-way that I was very impressed with. Itís a very high quality paper driver with excellent sound quality. It will lack a bit of detail in comparison to harder cone drivers though. I do like the Aurium Cantus AC-130 MKII drivers Iím using in the Omegarrays a lot. Very crisp, detailed and clean sounding. Theyíd also work well in your application.

Instead of the JP-2ís why not the JP-3ís? Shorter is much better with a ribbon in a conventional speaker. I think youíll find vertical dispersion to be the equal of a 1Ē dome but still have the benefits of a ribbon. It should have nearly all of the detail and air of the JP-3ís you heard in my arrays. Crossover should be in the 2.5K Ė 3K range.

I should have hauled out the JH3 Reference while you were there. Based on what Iím reading in your post, you might have really enjoyed them. Imaging with a mid dome/ OWIII combination is very hard to beat in a point source speaker. The JP-3 would work extremely well too.

Best of luck!

Jim
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Old 20th July 2004, 05:23 PM   #3
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Quote:
The measurements confirmed my preference, based on extensive listening, for the D2905/9700 as the more accurate tweeter than the SS metal dome. For any new design I would seriously consider the Seas T25CF002-06 tweeter, though I am not sure how directly the small improvements in measurement data translate into audible benefits.
http://www.linkwitzlab.com/x-mid_dist.htm

I've been using that link a bit lately...
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Old 20th July 2004, 05:52 PM   #4
goskers is offline goskers  United States
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Hey Jim,

I was actually driving through DM this past weekend but unfortunately didn't have a whole lot of time on my hands otherwise I would have tried to bug you some more.
I really want to hear those arrays now that the final bugs are worked out.
The things that I really loved about yours were the detail and dynamics. I just didn't have enough time with them to make a full judgement. Maybe I can get to DM again before I have to move yet another time and have a full session with the Reference's as well.
I will definitely take your comment about the smaller ribbon into consideration. My goal with the use of the computer is to be able to do room correction. With the correction I can get the sealed woofers to be free of room interaction. This kind of gives me the best of both worlds between dipole and sealed.
This is all kind of preliminary right now but I don't like not knowing where I am going next.

wasser
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Old 20th July 2004, 06:46 PM   #5
jholtz is offline jholtz  United States
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Default 3-way thoughts...

Joel,

Itís too bad you didnít have some time this weekend. I kicked back on Sunday and just vegged most of the day. Youíre more than welcome to stop by for a longer listening session when ever we can coordinate.

I like the JH3 Reference as well as any point source speaker Iíve heard. However, Iíve never heard a di-pole so I canít give that comparison. In comparison to my Omegarrays, the mid range is very, very close between the two. Vocals are comparable. Top end with the OWIII isnít quite as airy as the JP-3ís but is very detailed. Bass and mid bass are very close in quality.

The arrays win in overall dynamics though. 10 drivers doing the job of one is effortless where as the single driver has to work a bit. The Morel MDM-55 mid dome rocks in my opinion. Exceptional imaging and detail. Ribbons work great with mid domes too. BTW, they have pin point imaging rather than the array variety so that might also be to your liking.

I could have lived very easily with the JH3 Reference if I hadnít gotten the ďbugĒ to do an array. :-) Check out Rickís RC3R design. Heís used a number of different woofers to go with the JP-3 and MDM-55. I think it comes standard with a SS 8545 but I know heís used a W22 and my Focal 8K5412 too. Itís a very flexible design. I also wanted to mention that a Focal 5W is a good candidate for a mid. Very transparent but a little tough to work with. It would be a toss up between the AC-130 and the 5W sound wise in my opinion and the AC-130 is easier to tame.

BTW, Iím hosting the 2004 Iowa DIY event in Altoona October 23rd at the Adventureland Inn. Thatís a Saturday. The Friday night before, Iím going to have a get together for anyone that wants to come to my house and listen to the Omegarrays. Theyíre too darn big to cart to the event so I thought Iíd serve sandwiches etc. and have a bit of a social get together for early arrivals. I hope you can make it. There should be some nice designs there again this year. Also, Dennis Murphy is planning on attending and Dave Ellis will be there again. Lotís of fun!

Jim
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Old 20th July 2004, 09:11 PM   #6
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Default Re: 3-way design options

[QUOTE]Originally posted by goskers


For the high end I am torn between the SS9800 and a ribbon like the Fountek JP2.


Buy one of each to examine them, that is what I do when I'm
torn. Peace of mind.

For the mid I am very intrigued by the PHL 1220. I have owned a couple of systems that use the seas mag excel but I am looking for something different. I have not seen anyone who has used the 1220 or 1230.

The 1240 from e-speakers is popular. One review found here;
http://www.caraudioforum.com/vbb3/sh...d.php?t=191130
(if server busy, try later)


All general reports from other PHL gear seems to be quite positive.


yes


In addition to driver selection, I have some general questions about xo implementation. How do you create a seamless crossover to the mid from the woofer?

Is that woofer able to operate with good sound if you
low pass around 200hz - 300hz? If you are not sure,
then test it before chosing a midrange driver.

If you think the woofer sounds great in this range, then you have
an option to use the JP2 mated to a PHL 1120, both high
sensitivity drivers. Should integrate well. If you chose a lower
sensitivity dome tweeter then is the sensitivity issue a problem
for you? Is this a 3 way active or passive design?

If the woofer works better under 100hz, then maybe consider
the 1240, lower sensitivity though, but more low end.

If you did use an active 3 way setup, then you can tweak the
crossover points later after it's built. Just set your active
crossover to some generic starting points and fine tune when
playing music.
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Old 21st July 2004, 03:45 PM   #7
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What about considering the PHL 1660, which e-speakers considers among the best mids, for the MTM. The specs say that 2 PHL1660s will be good down to 300Hz. They have much higher power handling, 250Watts, and sensitivity, 97db.

Al
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Old 22nd July 2004, 06:41 AM   #8
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Goskers,

Let me know if you want to buy my SS9800s. Pair for $175 + shipping.

One of the posts broke at the top during shipping but can be soldered back or wire can be soldered directly to post. Has very little use.

Al
alpgaray@yahoo.com
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