The following are a miss in the flex units - at a first glance
Fault - 1)
Due to the cone size being smaller (it is a mid & not a woofer)
the rear air volume devloped by this cone will not devolop a large cooling air flow around the voice coil through a normal back pole venting and neither will it from from under the spider
- another point is that this being a mid most probably it will be mounted in its own sub-enclsure not allowing the air dispaced by the woofer to do the cooling job
for this the cooling should be built in to the frame , in a way that the air pressure under the cone - and not the volume of air is used to directly channel to the voice coil - this is done by fins between the top plate and frame - preferably tapered to increase the velocity of air flow further
Fault - 2)
Ears are a lot sensitive to the mids - distortion reducing techniques left out like
- No symmetrical fild geometry ( though some uder hung versions can be ordered )
- No reduction of Eddy Current build up & furter distortion creation addressed
Fault - 3)
Voice coil induction stabilisation not adressed by :-
Shorting rings in silde the magnetic flux lines to reduce even order distortions
Shorting rings outside the flux - to reduce - odd order distortions
Fault - 4)
Overhung design - BL stabilisation Extended B or Magnetic field not addressed
and very costly -
1) - cone cost - 3 $ max ( from Kurt Mueller)
2) - spider - 0.2 $
3) - Basket - 3 $ max to max ( Pressure castind Al = 3 $ / KG International rate )
4) - Magnet - y 35 grade or wet pressed - 1 $
5) - Pole Plates - 1008 - 2 $ s max ( Raw material 1008 steel 0.8 $ s / KG International Rate )
6) - Labor charges 100 % of materail cost = 10 $ max
total cost with maximum values in cost - 20 Usd -
Skaaking Price - 250 Usd
therefore all there is to say to
there is a lot of world out there
Suranjan Das Gupta
Transducer Design Engineer
Hi
Thule , These are the costs from reputed suppliers of :-
1) Cone , Spider - Kurt Mueller UK
2) Magnet - Hitachi metals
3) Metals - I calculated / Kg International rate
- for this midrange you will not be using 1 Kg of the metal, - around .35 Kg . The rest is towards - Casting / Machining costs
of the basket / pole plates
4) Voice Coil - Ready made from USA
5) Production Cost = How I have calculated is - In Europe 100 % of the Raw materials , Which are now 15 Usd ( VC Was Forgotten before )
I took 10 $ s , This will include Adhesives and the Carton Box , Stickers easily too
If you want a similar driver with all the improvements I have talked about above
- with an Indian Cone / US made spider / Hitachi magnet / Equavelent Voice coil from the Asian counter part of Precision Econowound / Metal same - Steel and Al is same everywhere
it will be around 20 USD max my selling price
I am yet setting up my company and not geared that well for export yet - but 20 usd will be the approx price from many asian sources like me
Suranjan Das Gupta
Thule , These are the costs from reputed suppliers of :-
1) Cone , Spider - Kurt Mueller UK
2) Magnet - Hitachi metals
3) Metals - I calculated / Kg International rate
- for this midrange you will not be using 1 Kg of the metal, - around .35 Kg . The rest is towards - Casting / Machining costs
of the basket / pole plates
4) Voice Coil - Ready made from USA
5) Production Cost = How I have calculated is - In Europe 100 % of the Raw materials , Which are now 15 Usd ( VC Was Forgotten before )
I took 10 $ s , This will include Adhesives and the Carton Box , Stickers easily too
If you want a similar driver with all the improvements I have talked about above
- with an Indian Cone / US made spider / Hitachi magnet / Equavelent Voice coil from the Asian counter part of Precision Econowound / Metal same - Steel and Al is same everywhere
it will be around 20 USD max my selling price
I am yet setting up my company and not geared that well for export yet - but 20 usd will be the approx price from many asian sources like me
Suranjan Das Gupta
hunter audio said:
I think your "first glance" missed that shorting rings are avaliable with the skanning drivers. Actually it can be seen right there in the cut off picture, the color of the copper
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Suranjan,
you mentioned hexacoil wire used for the voicevoil, isn't that a patent of Dynaudio, I'm not sure but they have used and marketing it for a very long time, probably close to 20 years.
These days they don't make elements for the private market...
Further Q's, are those prices for standard parts like pole peaces, magnets, basket etc already in production/of the shelf parts, and if somebody would like to order from you custom parts, what are we talking then for prices and how would you preceed in such a case?
Parts that need new machinings/tool equipment etc. would be a new cone design and molded basket for instance is my guess.
If we talk about above mentioned, custom basket and cone, what is the initial cost, and is it easy for you to start a new design of said?
Can you offer as an active operator in the area competitive prices for element parts which are of the shelf due to that you may perhaps have regular customer/favourable volume prices compared to if I would go and buy element parts myself?
Regards Michael
you mentioned hexacoil wire used for the voicevoil, isn't that a patent of Dynaudio, I'm not sure but they have used and marketing it for a very long time, probably close to 20 years.
These days they don't make elements for the private market...
Further Q's, are those prices for standard parts like pole peaces, magnets, basket etc already in production/of the shelf parts, and if somebody would like to order from you custom parts, what are we talking then for prices and how would you preceed in such a case?
Parts that need new machinings/tool equipment etc. would be a new cone design and molded basket for instance is my guess.
If we talk about above mentioned, custom basket and cone, what is the initial cost, and is it easy for you to start a new design of said?
Can you offer as an active operator in the area competitive prices for element parts which are of the shelf due to that you may perhaps have regular customer/favourable volume prices compared to if I would go and buy element parts myself?
Regards Michael
Sorry
I did leave out the shorting ring - this will control the - eddys & stabilise the vc inductance a bit - to the effect that it is placed outside the centreline of the magnet flux
therefore reducing 3 rd harmonic distortion only
thanks Feyz for the correction ,
Ultima
the price will be 20 Usd when on the shelf spares are used - then the order quantity will go down ,
and on custom parts it will yet be 20 Usd the order quantity may go up , but it really does not effect the pricing much as i have taken input costs of machining each part
I have intially taken very high Raw Material prices - Exactly Catalogued by World renowed suppliers , as actual European / spare parts Input costs faced by Skaakings or Scan Speak or Vifa
Here we would be using our own cones - as in Hi Fi drivers I find Asean cones are comparable - provided you have them made to your standards by the cone manufacturer -
PRO AUDIO Asean cones are no where near comparision to European Kurt Mueller UK cones or to those from LCC or Nuway USA - ( this is my observation only , )
I would not like to be taken otherwise but Levis would not have closed each and every factory in US and shifted to China & India if it really did not make such an huge effect
Levis has stiiching units in other Asian countries too but the Denim is sourced only from china & India now adays
one can quite imagine how big an operation it must have been to shift manufacturing of that large a scale - if we have to shift houses we are overwhelmed by the work load ! And there is no U - Haul or Packers to help you to shift manufacturing with a lot of trade secrets
On an average worlds 80 % drivers used in Car Audio is made in China , and again on a world average there is as many driver sales in Car Audio - as there is to Hi Fi & Pro audio combined ( Each car sold having 4 speakers factory fitted more or less - alll sourced from Asia )
Suranjan Das Gupta
I did leave out the shorting ring - this will control the - eddys & stabilise the vc inductance a bit - to the effect that it is placed outside the centreline of the magnet flux
therefore reducing 3 rd harmonic distortion only
thanks Feyz for the correction ,
Ultima
the price will be 20 Usd when on the shelf spares are used - then the order quantity will go down ,
and on custom parts it will yet be 20 Usd the order quantity may go up , but it really does not effect the pricing much as i have taken input costs of machining each part
I have intially taken very high Raw Material prices - Exactly Catalogued by World renowed suppliers , as actual European / spare parts Input costs faced by Skaakings or Scan Speak or Vifa
Here we would be using our own cones - as in Hi Fi drivers I find Asean cones are comparable - provided you have them made to your standards by the cone manufacturer -
PRO AUDIO Asean cones are no where near comparision to European Kurt Mueller UK cones or to those from LCC or Nuway USA - ( this is my observation only , )
I would not like to be taken otherwise but Levis would not have closed each and every factory in US and shifted to China & India if it really did not make such an huge effect
Levis has stiiching units in other Asian countries too but the Denim is sourced only from china & India now adays
one can quite imagine how big an operation it must have been to shift manufacturing of that large a scale - if we have to shift houses we are overwhelmed by the work load ! And there is no U - Haul or Packers to help you to shift manufacturing with a lot of trade secrets
On an average worlds 80 % drivers used in Car Audio is made in China , and again on a world average there is as many driver sales in Car Audio - as there is to Hi Fi & Pro audio combined ( Each car sold having 4 speakers factory fitted more or less - alll sourced from Asia )
Suranjan Das Gupta
One can also see the measures for achieving a symmetrical magnetic field.
With the SMALLEST voice-coil being 2" cooling is almost a non-issue.
To me it is of course clear that one can manufacture a driver much cheaper in India than in Europe (Denmark being one of the most expensive BTW).
Furthermore the Flexunit Drivers can be ordered with custom parameters starting from only two pieces. For this small numbers even an Asian manufacturer would charge more than 20 USD I assume.
Regarding the Dynaudio similarities: I know of at least one patent (the one-piece cones) that belong to Mr Skaaning himself, who was one of the founders of Dynaudio.
Regards
Charles
With the SMALLEST voice-coil being 2" cooling is almost a non-issue.
To me it is of course clear that one can manufacture a driver much cheaper in India than in Europe (Denmark being one of the most expensive BTW).
Furthermore the Flexunit Drivers can be ordered with custom parameters starting from only two pieces. For this small numbers even an Asian manufacturer would charge more than 20 USD I assume.
Regarding the Dynaudio similarities: I know of at least one patent (the one-piece cones) that belong to Mr Skaaning himself, who was one of the founders of Dynaudio.
Regards
Charles
I have C-Quenze 4" units in my car (although they did get some boxed an open baffle work before I put them in the car) and ATC SCM100ASLs (and SCM100As) at work. VERY tough call, the ATCs have a certain richness to the midrange while the C-Quenzes are a little more delicate and fluid sounding to my ears, both are excellent products though and I doubt you would be unhappy with either. I think the deciding factor would be do you need the mids to drop that much lower. the ATCs are good to 300Hz, the C-Quenzes down to 150Hz, do you need/want that extra extension?
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