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Old 25th February 2012, 03:45 PM   #681
Elias is offline Elias  Finland
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Originally Posted by markus76 View Post
Uh, conventional two-speaker stereo is not that bad after all?

Well, low freq amplitude panning to ITD is about all the conventional stereo can do However, even this it cannot do properly since the formed sound field is not a natural one (velocity vector less than unity).

That is not going to satisfy us in a small room acoustic space. Also it appears that perceptionally high freqs tend to dominate.


- Elias
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Old 25th February 2012, 03:47 PM   #682
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It's never too late to learn !


BTW, have you already grasped the Blumlein stereo patent, about amplitude panning to ITD ?

It is relevant here, because when cross talk is cancelled amplitude difference to ITD conversion does not happen !

- Elias
One has been quite devious with one's filters, so one's filters do, but other ones don't..
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Old 25th February 2012, 04:05 PM   #683
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Originally Posted by Elias View Post
Well, low freq amplitude panning to ITD is about all the conventional stereo can do However, even this it cannot do properly since the formed sound field is not a natural one (velocity vector less than unity).

That is not going to satisfy us in a small room acoustic space. Also it appears that perceptionally high freqs tend to dominate.


- Elias
Well, there's never a "natural" sound field as long as there's also a playback room. Any approach that tries to utilize the room is much more complicated and difficult to set up than simple stereo. Or why is it that you're still experimenting with different techniques?
In the end you might create a more realistic presentation with a very small number of recordings. Do it if that's what you're after but two speaker stereo is made for and in acoustically small spaces. That's a simple fact a lot of people try to ignore. Some are more successful than others.

Last edited by markus76; 25th February 2012 at 04:07 PM.
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Old 25th February 2012, 05:32 PM   #684
Elias is offline Elias  Finland
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Originally Posted by markus76 View Post
Well, there's never a "natural" sound field as long as there's also a playback room. Any approach that tries to utilize the room is much more complicated and difficult to set up than simple stereo. Or why is it that you're still experimenting with different techniques?
In the end you might create a more realistic presentation with a very small number of recordings. Do it if that's what you're after but two speaker stereo is made for and in acoustically small spaces. That's a simple fact a lot of people try to ignore. Some are more successful than others.

Some fields are more natural than others. In a natural field one is able to turn his head without the spatial image locations changinig or jumping. In a conventional stereo triangle a small head turning causes phantom image to move and turning a little bit more causes image to jump to the speakers. Thus a sound perception experience with any system that is immune to head rotation (as well as lateral shift !) is to be considered as more natural.

Stereo triangle made for small room ?? Arent we forgetting something ? What happened to the principle of reflection free zone

The first principe of bringing a stereo triangle into a small room is to treat room reflections as evil. People make considerable amount of efforts of installing room absorbers. You also do the same.

Secondly, the Blumlein stereo theory of transforming amplitude differences to ITD is not valid in an reflective small room where wavelengths are approaching distance of room reflections.

It certainly doos not sound like stereo triangle is made for a small room


Let's not forget Ambiophonics ! It is also not made for a small room per se. Here room reflections are considered as having negative effect.. Cross talk cancellation do not work optimally with room reflections etc.


A sound system for a small room.. The room must be an integral part of it. If the design starts by utilising the room as a benefit, it can be succesful.


- Elias
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Old 25th February 2012, 09:24 PM   #685
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Some fields are more natural than others. In a natural field one is able to turn his head without the spatial image locations changinig or jumping. In a conventional stereo triangle a small head turning causes phantom image to move and turning a little bit more causes image to jump to the speakers.
That's probably your personal experience. Doesn't mirror mine in such severity.
I agree that a center speaker is desirable but most of the time not practical.

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Originally Posted by Elias View Post
Thus a sound perception experience with any system that is immune to head rotation (as well as lateral shift !) is to be considered as more natural.
Mono would satisfy that premise. But obviously two speakers deliver a superior experience or is this again some kind of conspiracy of the same evil industry that brought us multichannel?

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Stereo triangle made for small room ?? Arent we forgetting something ? What happened to the principle of reflection free zone
I said "two speaker stereo" - and therefore most recordings - are made in and for acoustically small rooms. That's just how it is. You can probably find some control rooms that are more the size of a dubbing stage but most control rooms are rather small and cramped spaces.

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Originally Posted by Elias View Post
The first principe of bringing a stereo triangle into a small room is to treat room reflections as evil. People make considerable amount of efforts of installing room absorbers. You also do the same.
You have never been to my room. And, the "first principe" is not treating room reflections as evil. This is a very naive description of what acousticians do, what reflection patterns they are looking for. You might want to have a look at Toole's book again.

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Originally Posted by Elias View Post
Secondly, the Blumlein stereo theory of transforming amplitude differences to ITD is not valid in an reflective small room where wavelengths are approaching distance of room reflections.

It certainly doos not sound like stereo triangle is made for a small room
Well, Blumlein theory is a theory and people like Theile have shown that there's more to it.

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Originally Posted by Elias View Post
Let's not forget Ambiophonics ! It is also not made for a small room per se. Here room reflections are considered as having negative effect.. Cross talk cancellation do not work optimally with room reflections etc.
Ambiophonics has all kinds of problems and not just benefits hence I don't consider it superior to stereo.

Quote:
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A sound system for a small room.. The room must be an integral part of it. If the design starts by utilising the room as a benefit, it can be succesful.


- Elias
I wholeheartedly agree.
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Old 9th March 2012, 11:45 AM   #686
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Originally Posted by Melo theory View Post
Poldus, Yeah, I know, I've been emailing ambio4you about this digi-ambio stack conundrum for months. I think they are droping the ball on this!
Get stuck in to this lads!
Raspberry Pi | An ARM GNU/Linux box for $25. Take a byte!
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Old 9th March 2012, 05:02 PM   #687
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Thanx David

So, I take it this is an ARM based hardware kit that a PC intended algorithm can be downloaded to?

Please expand on this.....
I've followed the link and read the Wikipedia page, but I'm not really a computer guy.
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Old 9th March 2012, 08:14 PM   #688
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Thanx David

So, I take it this is an ARM based hardware kit that a PC intended algorithm can be downloaded to?

Please expand on this.....
I've followed the link and read the Wikipedia page, but I'm not really a computer guy.
They have only just been announced, aimed at schools mainly, so I don't know much about it yet. They run Linux, have a HDMI port (including audio) port, could take a USB sound card such as a Behringer UCA202. I am certainly going to get one as soon as they are available, and see if I can run Jconvolver on it.
Ubuntu Manpage: jconvolver - is a Convolution Engine for JACK using FFT-based

Last edited by David Wareing; 9th March 2012 at 08:26 PM. Reason: hit the wrong key..
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Old 9th March 2012, 08:20 PM   #689
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oh, by the way, the tc9's are out of stock at parts express, so i went ahead and bought the dayton amps and miniambio for my ambiopole. the drivers will be back in stock at the end of the month. i will get started on the build when the amps arrive. I'm going to build from the bottom up.

also, i have redesigned it. I'm dropping the minidsp, and using the low pass crossover in the dayton amp set to mono, 150 watts bridged in an 8 ohm load.....lowpass set to 50 hz at 18 db roll off. this should give me a -6 db at 40 hz, and will cross at -3db (butterworth) around 200 hz to the other drivers. i also cut out two rows of drivers on the low end. now there are 36 drivers at 8 ohm's, equaling an 18 inch driver for the lows. that should get it to -6 db at 40 hz. the outer drivers will be using RACE with its peq functions. they will have a 4 ohm load, also equaling an 18 inch driver in total. the other dayton amp will power these, giving 75 watts *2 in a 4 ohm load.
The amps will be daisy-chained with the miniambio after the lowpass amp and before the highpassed amp, with no highpass on RACE.

this puts the outer ambio driver centers at only 5 degrees at a distance of 10 ft, 10.5 inches apart.
I have been testing this configuration lately with RACE set up for a 60 degree spread and it sounds really good. Like conventional stereo with perfect imaging. the trick, I think is to have the listening position right against the back wall, the high frequencies bounce back to the ear and push out those pesky pinna cues further to the sides. It kind of simulates a rear ambiopole through reflections.

here is the picture of the new speaker. I'm naming it...
the "EVENT HORIZON"

click to enlarge
Untitled 2 2 3 2 3 2 2 2.jpg
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Old 9th March 2012, 08:22 PM   #690
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David.....
I already read what I posted.....are you saying i've answered my own question somehow?


.....oh, sorry, only the quote showed up on my pc at first.
Disregard this

Yes, please get busy on a ambio hardware kit!
I will purchase ASAP

Oh, I watched the link you posted on the BACCH thread. Thanx for that!

Last edited by Melo theory; 9th March 2012 at 08:31 PM.
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