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Old 11th October 2011, 11:41 PM   #501
Rudolf is offline Rudolf  Germany
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markus76 View Post
Did anybody else try this?
I'm not sure, what is expected. Are we talking about a physical center channel plus L and R? Or is the question just, whether (or not) we hear phantom sources between L and R, if both are separated by 30 only?

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Old 12th October 2011, 01:32 AM   #502
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My system is not orthodox but it's easy to try your thing :

>>> L channel untouched
>>> R channel feeded by SUM A+B (eg L+R), level -6dB for starting but adjustable at will.

A female voice that's normally mainly on the L channel can indeed be panned anywhere between full left and full center when playing with the SUM slider.
An opposite result would be very puzzling because, correct me if I'm wrong, this is still stereo with an other mapping.
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Old 12th October 2011, 08:44 AM   #503
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Originally Posted by Rudolf View Post
I'm not sure, what is expected. Are we talking about a physical center channel plus L and R? Or is the question just, whether (or not) we hear phantom sources between L and R, if both are separated by 30 only?

Rudolf
Hi Rudolf,

the qestion is if we hear phantom sources between C (at 0) and L (at 30) or C and R respectively. Ralph claimed that this is not possible but I can hear such phantom sources without a problem. So I'm wondering if it's just me.
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Old 12th October 2011, 11:30 AM   #504
Rudolf is offline Rudolf  Germany
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Originally Posted by markus76 View Post
the qestion is if we hear phantom sources between C (at 0) and L (at 30) or C and R respectively ...
Hi Markus,
I'm just not sure, what "C" is in this case. A third speaker with what kind of signal? The location of the virtual center image? An ambio artefact? Something else?

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Old 12th October 2011, 12:05 PM   #505
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Originally Posted by Rudolf View Post
Hi Markus,
I'm just not sure, what "C" is in this case. A third speaker with what kind of signal? The location of the virtual center image? An ambio artefact? Something else?

Rudolf
Rudolf, Ralph claimed that it's impossible (?) to generate phantom images between a center speaker at 0 and a speaker at 30 to the left (or the right).

Maybe this picture helps:

Click the image to open in full size.

I've tried it with simple level panned signals and it works just fine.
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Old 12th October 2011, 01:05 PM   #506
Pano is offline Pano  United States
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Works for me, too. Level panned or time shifted - or both.
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Old 12th October 2011, 01:34 PM   #507
Rudolf is offline Rudolf  Germany
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Originally Posted by markus76 View Post
Rudolf, Ralph claimed that it's impossible (?) to generate phantom images between a center speaker at 0 and a speaker at 30 to the left (or the right).
Works for me too. "Of course", I was tempted to say. But I still have to learn something. I really wasn't aware that for a significant(?) part of the population stereo isn't as easy as it seems to me. Has any research looked into that (stereo perception and the masses) in any depth?

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Old 12th October 2011, 02:07 PM   #508
Pano is offline Pano  United States
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Good question. I remember a friend back in the 1970s who claimed that stereo was all a hoax. He simply could here no difference between stereo and mono - and no, he wasn't deaf in one ear! Not a dummy either, very technical.

I don't think I've met anyone else with two functioning ears that had the same problem, but maybe it's more common than we think.
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Old 12th October 2011, 02:07 PM   #509
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Works for me too. "Of course", I was tempted to say. But I still have to learn something. I really wasn't aware that for a significant(?) part of the population stereo isn't as easy as it seems to me. Has any research looked into that (stereo perception and the masses) in any depth?

Rudolf
Not that I know of but once in a while someone comes along (more often than not on a audiophool board) and claims that it's impossible to perceive high frequency phantom sources or any phantom source at all.
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Old 12th October 2011, 02:15 PM   #510
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Ralph,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph Glasgal View Post
If you expect a phantom image between C and L for thirty degree spacing while you are facing the center speaker, then you know something I do not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph Glasgal View Post
neither ILD nor ITD can be used by humans to localize at frequencies above say 1500 Hz.
I'm wondering if those two statements are somehow connected?
Do you perceive phantom sources in a standard stereo setup when the recording makes use of interchannel level differences only?
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