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Old 30th July 2011, 05:35 AM   #461
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Has anyone played with the Behringer VIRTUALIZER 3D FX2000? It has a "binauralizer" mode that says it widens the stereo field and does some crosstalk processing.

BEHRINGER: FX2000

Greg
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Old 31st July 2011, 03:35 AM   #462
kevinh is offline kevinh  United States
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Originally Posted by studiotech View Post
Has anyone played with the Behringer VIRTUALIZER 3D FX2000? It has a "binauralizer" mode that says it widens the stereo field and does some crosstalk processing.

BEHRINGER: FX2000

Greg

Looks like a 2 ch device, not so much a multi ch music processor. I would also bet the op amps used aren't the best, though the analog circuits could be replaced.
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Old 31st July 2011, 04:00 AM   #463
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Yes, of course only 2 channel, but i was wondering if the processing might similar to the miniambio device. Similar price.
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Old 31st July 2011, 05:05 AM   #464
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The PDF for the user manual won't open so I can't read about it in depth, but it would only be similar if the xtc is recursive. That's what R.A.C.E. is.
Regarding miniambio....I wish people would show more interest so they don't discontinue it. Maybe supporting their forum would help. I really wanted the minidigi-miniambio stack they promised me

Another note.....what do you guys think of the ambiophonics iPad app?
Only me and one other person reviewed it in the app store. We have to create a buzz for ambiophonics or it will never take off! Most audiophiles don't even know about this stuff, nevermind your average Joe.

Ok, I'm starting to rant now......sorry
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Old 9th October 2011, 12:33 PM   #465
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There are two issues with current x-talk cancellers that will have to be solved before it gains wide acceptance.

1- The higher frequencies.
A little barrier will cancel X-talk in this range but the Ambio4you ( the one I have spent more time with) will not. I believe this problem exists with all software implementations I have tried so far.

2- The more you apply recursion the more prominent the reverb in the recording will get. Reducing recursion will simply not give you all the magic an ambiophonic system is capable of. So a way must be devised to reduce reverb as recursion increases. This problem would of course not exist if recordings were made with ambiophonics reproduction in mind: just a matter of tilting the direct sound/reflections ratio more towards the former.

To me, #2 is the real problem. A llittle barrier does not scare me. I easily put it in place for a listening session and then put it away.

I found that Robin Miller and Howard Moscovitzīs implementation (over at elctro music.com) was more satisfying and it did include a 'space' control that reduced reverb somehow but cannot comment much on it because I long ago decided not to bother using the PC, converters and so on to listen to music.
So it seems feasible but I donīt think they are willing to comment much on that. I did ask them to consider offering their system in a little box such as Ambio4you.
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Old 9th October 2011, 12:43 PM   #466
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The barrier also prevents right speaker sound from hitting the left wall then entering your left ear.

I thought of a headphone ambio baseball hat. Instead of headphone drivers firing into your ear, they hang out in front of you (hanging down from the brim) but maybe the frames would be 2"-3" apart, probably sealed backs. That way your ear folds tell you that the sound is infront of you, the way you've heard it your entire life. The no front image of headphones drives me NUTS !!!

Norman
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Old 9th October 2011, 10:24 PM   #467
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Originally Posted by poldus View Post
There are two issues with current x-talk cancellers that will have to be solved before it gains wide acceptance.

1- The higher frequencies.
A little barrier will cancel X-talk in this range but the Ambio4you ( the one I have spent more time with) will not. I believe this problem exists with all software implementations I have tried so far.
The purpose of either the barrier or the Ambio4you is to restore the localization cues (ILD and ITD) inherent in virtually all 2 channel recordings lost when speakers are located 60 degrees apart. Note however, that neither ILD nor ITD can be used by humans to localize at frequencies above say 1500 Hz. Above this approximate frequency humans can only localize using their pinna. Thus it matters little whether you cancel crosstalk above this frequency or leave it as stereo as far as ITD or ILD is concerned.

The ambio4you and virtually all the other Ambiophonic RACE implementations have a control in them so you can decide at what frequency you want the crosstalk cancellation to end shift back to stereo. If you set it as stereo say above 4000Hz then you will have to endure the normal combfiltering (major peaks and dips) that is one of several problemf with stereo loudspeaker placement. However if you have moved your speakers closer together for Ambiophonics then the combing starts at several octaves higher than with the 60 degree placement, so it is hard to hear any difference if the high frequencies are left as stereo rather than crosstalk cancelled using the controls provided.

If you set the ambio4you (miniambio) for full range cancellation, it will do that but it is unlikely that your speakers will be so perfectly aligned or that you will have set the delay and attenuation adjustments so perfectly that you will actually accomplish cancellation at frequencies like 10kHz where half an inch can cause a polarity reversal. (Same for stereo) But again, nobody has been able to show that high treble, cancelled improperly, sounds any different than stereo with combing, and the similar phase shifts with real speakers in real rooms.

Finally, the barrier is perfect in this regard. The trick has been to get RACE to where it sounds as good as the barrier to most listeners. This has not been easy. But if you can hear differences in cables and can hear a difference between 48/24 and 96/24 then you must use a barrier. But if your ears are that good, how can you stand the stereo loudspeaker triangle with all its obvious reproduction errors not just in localiztion but also in frequency response?

Finally, It is unlikely that Ambiophonics will replace stereophonics any more than stereophonics has replaced monophonics. Think cellphones, AM radio, iPods, Droids, TV news broadcasts, old movies. Even those with stereo clock radios, stereo TVs, and car systems seldom hear any stage. Ambio was really developed for classical music listening for those who want a domestic concert hall or opera house, and okay a jazz or Bway show orchestra. If you just listen to a vocalist with a guitar or small combo or a rapper you don't need Ambio and in most such cases you don't need two speakers either.

Ralph Glasgal
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Old 9th October 2011, 10:54 PM   #468
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Originally Posted by poldus View Post
There are two issues with current x-talk cancellers that will have to be solved before it gains wide acceptance.

2- The more you apply recursion the more prominent the reverb in the recording will get. Reducing recursion will simply not give you all the magic an ambiophonic system is capable of. So a way must be devised to reduce reverb as recursion increases. This problem would of course not exist if recordings were made with ambiophonics reproduction in mind: just a matter of tilting the direct sound/reflections ratio more towards the former.
I have not found any correlation between recursion and a change in percieved reverb. The time constants involved are of course quite different. The ping pong of crosstalk cancellation, normally every 180 microseconds at each ear attenuated by some 3dB each cycle reaches inaudibililty rather quickly so in say 3 milliseconds there is nothing to hear. In listening rooms or studios, the first early reflection is usually a bounce off the floor or in concert halls from a seat back or head and is on the order of 1 millisecond per foot of extra distance. So humans always are hearing these kinds of very early reflections and they are ignored by the brain. But in the case of Ambiophonics, the energy left at 3 milliseconds is negligible compared to the energy of the first early reflections in a concert hall, home, or studio which may only be a few dB lower than the direct sound.

However, when you eliminate the crosstalk and move the speakers closer, there is a noticable increase in depth, clarity, presence, spaciousness, etc. and one could describe this as something that seems like an increase in ambience.

There is also the case where hall ambience has been sensed by the mics and mixed into the front channels. This reverb has directional cues in it since it is coming to the mics from the side and front walls of the stage or from the sides, ceiling, and rear of the rear hall. When that directionality is recovered by using one of the crosstalk cancellers, then most humans, react favorably to these directional cues just as they would if they were at the microphone position during the session. Thus Ambio will not sound like stereo, but normally that is the idea. Changing the recursion parameters will not change this effect unless the cancellation becomes so poor that you essentially have mostly stereo again.

Most stereo recordings are relatively dry because if you have too much reverb coming from the front, humans begin to hear a sewer effect. Same with microphones that are exposed to the ceiling, the rear, and the sides of halls. If they are placed too far away from the performers, the result is again the sewer effect. The Ambiophone is a microphone array designed to prevent these effects, but in practice the overwhelming majority of existing LPs and CDs reproduce quite nicely using Ambiophonic reproduction systems.

Ralph Glasgal
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Old 9th October 2011, 11:02 PM   #469
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Originally Posted by norman bates View Post
The barrier also prevents right speaker sound from hitting the left wall then entering your left ear.

I thought of a headphone ambio baseball hat. Instead of headphone drivers firing into your ear, they hang out in front of you (hanging down from the brim) but maybe the frames would be 2"-3" apart, probably sealed backs. That way your ear folds tell you that the sound is infront of you, the way you've heard it your entire life. The no front image of headphones drives me NUTS !!!

Norman
The original IMAX 3D system included earspeakers as you describe. The localiztion was great. The low bass was handled by woofers throughout the theater. You could not localize to the ear speakers. You just had this soundstage in front of you. They could not do direct sound from the rear or the extreme sides however. Panambiophonics can do this now but only for home viewing. If you use one or more Soundmatters foxl with RACE you can do the same IMAX thing at home for multiple viewers.

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Old 10th October 2011, 07:45 AM   #470
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Originally Posted by Ralph Glasgal View Post
Note however, that neither ILD nor ITD can be used by humans to localize at frequencies above say 1500 Hz.
That contradicts current psychoacoustics literature, e.g.
Introduction to Psychoacoustics - Module 08A
Introduction to Psychoacoustics - Module 08B
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