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Old 30th March 2011, 03:48 PM   #401
durwood is offline durwood  United States
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Originally Posted by markus76 View Post
Ambisonics and Wavefield Synthesis are trying to recreate the soundfield at the ears but Ambiophonics is more like reversed stereo. It presents only one correct pinna localization cue to the ear, the cue for sound sources coming from the front. Any other phantom sound to the left and to the right is presented with incorrect pinna localization cues. Stereophony presents two correct pinna localization cues for monophonic sounds in the left and right loudspeaker. All other phantom sounds in between are presented with incorrect pinna localization cues. I'm not sure which scenario is preferable.
Yes and no?

Stereophony causes central images to become wider than they should be as frequency increases. Ambio does not, but might suffer some dynamic range loss for lower frequencies when trying to recreate width for those frequencies. This is where OSD is supposed to correct this potential pitfall, if really a problem.

Some things to consider

1) Stereo has been trained to us. We would have to unlearn this to accept something else.

2) If a DBT was performed, the listeners would have to not know anything about what they were going to be hearing and have almost no knowledge of such a setup existed. Otherwise, since the setup is flip-flopped it will be easier to pick out and a bias may be introduced. Then somehow, point one might also present a problem. I think using musicians of amplified instrument variety might take care of point 1...maybe? If it passed the test with regular instruments/bands then it should pass for everything else.

3) If we look back at history, spacial sound had two camps, Blumlein binaural and 3 channel (Bell Labs) as mentioned earlier about Harvey Fletcher. We have to remember that either would cost a pretty penny to change out from monophonic, with 2 channels cheaper than 3. Not only would playback cost more, but recording equipment had to be invented and developed at the same time. It took 15+ years for people to warm-up to the idea of what we know of as the marketed term "stereo". Ambio may be be a more economical choice to 3/5 channel depending on implementation, and still retain the benefits a monophonic centered type setup.

As recommended below in some of your posts, a center speaker is important solution. A 3 channel setup might not be suited for a particular room however if the side speakers are too close to the sidewalls. This could cause too early of sidewall reflections causing a loss in spaciousness/width. So, in a small room, it might work with the room better.


Quote:
Both techniques, Ambisonics and stereophony, are single seat solutions. A wider sweet spot delivering high quality sound to more than just a single person would be favorable.
Quote:
Originally Posted by markus76 View Post
I'm not sure why the error introduced by stereophony is more severe than the error introduced by Ambiophonics (which probably introduces even more errors when used with recordings made for stereophony).
The simple solution is to add a center speaker to stereophony. It solves the problem of compatibility with existing recordings and size of sweet spot too.
It's been calculated by people such as Angelo Farina (don't recall exact paper), Transaural folks, and ISVR (more here)that the errors are less with a centrally located speaker setup. The tricky part is proving this is true in real life and some of those issues overcoming that hurdle are noted above without promoting said technology in a faith based way.

OSD could in theory improve the sweet spot and improve dynamic capability of steering wide located lower frequency sounds with a controlled crosstalk setup.

Last edited by durwood; 30th March 2011 at 04:04 PM.
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Old 30th March 2011, 05:06 PM   #402
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Sorry to come in so late... but I was just listening to the ambiosonics demos on my laptop with headphones. Yes, I know this is not the intended application. BUT, I found that the ones that I listened to in the "unprocessed" versions seemed to be strangely "left-right" recordings (like early Beatles?), with very very little information in the center. On headphones. Listening to the same samples in the processed version, again with headphones, the result was more "normal" in terms of the mix. An excellent example is the Lil David cut. With ambiosonics the extreme left-right quality is changed back to something of what I consider to be the expected normal good ambience from a minimalist 2 mic recording. The ambiosonics does cause some odd upward shift of the soundstage in the headphones, but that I merely note that for the record.

The main thing is that the exemplar recordings presented do not appear to be "normal" in the 2 channel "stereo" form.

On another related question - is there yet a codec for Windoze media player, winamp or Quicktime that will do this trick on the fly, or does one have to first process the source material via one of the aforementioned programs??

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Old 30th March 2011, 07:01 PM   #403
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Bear,

I don't know if you mean ambiophonics or ambisonics? If you are talking about ambiophonics, there are several VST plug-ins that will work "on the fly" with winamp referred to on the right side of this webpage, towards the bottom. Some are free and some aren't. I have used the electro-music.com version with good results.

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Old 30th March 2011, 08:19 PM   #404
durwood is offline durwood  United States
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For winamp, download and install the "vst bridge/host" add-in
VST Winamp Bridge - Winamp
or here
Christian's Blog WinAmp

Assuming you already have one of the available vst ambiohponics plugins already:

(Here is another from the same author as the vst bridge Christian's Blog Spacial Plugins)

Go into the preferences menu for winamp, scroll to DSP, select vst bridge and configure. Load in any VST .dll file located on your hard drive. it will stay that way forever unless you unselect the vst bridge. Play away in real time.

Foobar also has the capability but it is called vst wrapper and is setup in a similar fashion.
yohng.com Foobar2000 VST Wrapper

I don't recall anything for wmp.

What happens if you use the headphone mix (crossfeed) plugin with those tracks anda pair of headphones? http://www.savioursofsoul.de/Christi...tereo-plugins/

I will have to test them myself this way.

Last edited by durwood; 30th March 2011 at 08:38 PM.
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Old 31st March 2011, 12:17 AM   #405
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phonics...

"Buttle not Tuttle... oh sorry..." - the punch line from the movie Brazil.

thanks I'll try dumping it on Winamp and seeing what that does...

any comments on what I heard with those demo tracks??

thanks...

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Old 31st March 2011, 05:22 AM   #406
durwood is offline durwood  United States
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Hmm, I experience the opposite. When using ambiophonics (sorry for my typing dyslexia earlier) with headphones I experience a stuck between the ears feeling (no depth) but almost binaural because of extreme width. I was trying to listen to unprocessed binaural recordings to compare, but they do not show up like the following and sound proper on headphones of course.

Here is Lil David unprocessed (left) and then processed (right) shown on a Goniometer. You can see how it compresses everything to left and right only. Second picture is before and after using a headphone crossfeed plugin. Not much difference, but it sounds fuller in the lower frequencies because that is what most crossfeed's do, fix the response created by the mismatch azimuth angle.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg beforeanafter.jpg (70.0 KB, 274 views)
File Type: jpg beforeandafter-headphonecrossfeed.jpg (37.7 KB, 271 views)

Last edited by durwood; 31st March 2011 at 05:38 AM.
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Old 31st March 2011, 04:50 PM   #407
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What you see on an oscilloscope or a meter is the average of the direct unaltered stereo signal plus a long train of early reflections which are the crosstalk cancellation vectors. Naturally the signal goinng to any speaker is a mixture of the left and right channels but because of the delays and polarity reversals this is not what you hear. The only way to see what you really get acoustically is if you measure the signal at the listening position using a microphone at a one ear location. Then you will just see a pure left channel and a pure right channel if everything is adjusted normally. Incidentally this sort of mixing means that if you are off center you can always hear both channels in Ambio, unlike stereo where you normally just hear one speaker.

The Electro VST plug-in, has some adjustments that are not strictly according to the RACE theory and they do manipulate the sum and difference signals in ways that may not be always desirable. These controls can make the center or sides more or less prominent, are easily abused, and I don't really know what some of them do myself.

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Old 1st April 2011, 04:19 AM   #408
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i was only referring to Ralph's example files on his site.

So what about my comments Ralph?

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Old 1st April 2011, 05:21 AM   #409
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I am still running an ambio setup at home, fairly similar to what Choeuri is using at Princeton. I'm using Gedlee Summas instead of the Gedlee Nathans that Choueri has.

A couple of random observations:

#1 - Most music is practically mono. It's ironic, because people are so obsessive about soundstaging, and I'm beginning to think that they're chasing after something which really isn't prevalent in the recordings.

#2 - It's lulz that audio guys have such disdain for home theater, because movies have waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more soundstaging cues than music does. This is especially noticeable over an ambio setup. (And i'm not even using rear speakers!)

#3 - Oddly enough, VIDEOGAMES seem to have some of the most impressive soundstaging. There are a lot of videogames where sounds seem to emanate from locations that are well outside of the loudspeaker.

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Old 1st April 2011, 06:14 AM   #410
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I dunno, what I listen to seems pretty "stereo". Heck, I'm listening to the radio now. WVTF.

Agree that movies do some fun stuff. I often listen to them without the video. Pretty goofy, yeah?
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