In a previous thread I mentioned that I'd used some NS-10s in a small (really small) room for years and was happy with that. This prompted some comments about what's "wrong" with the NS-10s (and these problems seem to be well-known and agreed). There was also some mention of the BBC-designed LS-3/5As.
Both of these models have achieved near legendary status for use as near-field monitors over many years. Not the "best" speakers by a long shot - and with lots of "character" (i.e. flaws) - but at least they are a known quantity and MANY recording engineers and producers have used them to great effect to mix and balance most of what is available in recorded format to us these days.
So, what is the "next thing" in use? (Now that these speakers have been essentially "retired"). What's the current popular setup in ACTUAL use in real recording and production environments? I'm not looking for conjecture or off-the-wall opinions here - rather some real observations about what is REALLY used - not just what might be nice...
I'd like to design and build something which was the equivalent (and, ideally, more than) these monitors - something which could be used in the same environment - and to replace my NS-10s which I gave to my daughter! SO - any comments regarding what you like or dislike about either of these speakers - and any suggestions for improvement and/or alternatives would be very much welcome.
In other words - What could replace them and perhaps go to the next level - and how/why?
Thanks and regards,
Bill
Both of these models have achieved near legendary status for use as near-field monitors over many years. Not the "best" speakers by a long shot - and with lots of "character" (i.e. flaws) - but at least they are a known quantity and MANY recording engineers and producers have used them to great effect to mix and balance most of what is available in recorded format to us these days.
So, what is the "next thing" in use? (Now that these speakers have been essentially "retired"). What's the current popular setup in ACTUAL use in real recording and production environments? I'm not looking for conjecture or off-the-wall opinions here - rather some real observations about what is REALLY used - not just what might be nice...
I'd like to design and build something which was the equivalent (and, ideally, more than) these monitors - something which could be used in the same environment - and to replace my NS-10s which I gave to my daughter! SO - any comments regarding what you like or dislike about either of these speakers - and any suggestions for improvement and/or alternatives would be very much welcome.
In other words - What could replace them and perhaps go to the next level - and how/why?
Thanks and regards,
Bill
What's funny is that the NS-10 and the LS3/5a are essentially exact opposites. The NS-10 has high sensitivity, exaggerated mids and no bass, and the LS3/5a has low sensitivity, depressed mids and a tubby midbass.
What is used now in studios a lot are the Mackie and Genelec powered monitors. These are designed for extremely flat response and probably sound more like the BR-1 (which I haven't heard) than either of the colored vintage monitors you mention in your post.
Best thing is to go to your local pro shop and listen to find out what you like. Check out studio mags for reviews with measurements and try to formulate a target curve in your mind - then design a speaker to match that curve.
What is used now in studios a lot are the Mackie and Genelec powered monitors. These are designed for extremely flat response and probably sound more like the BR-1 (which I haven't heard) than either of the colored vintage monitors you mention in your post.
Best thing is to go to your local pro shop and listen to find out what you like. Check out studio mags for reviews with measurements and try to formulate a target curve in your mind - then design a speaker to match that curve.
Well for nearfields you could always build a clone of the Wilson WATT.
http://www.users.nac.net/markowitzgd/david/david.htm
For a small room bi-amping, active c/o etc is a waste of time.
For farfield hi-fi use line level BSC should be used.
sreten.
http://www.users.nac.net/markowitzgd/david/david.htm
For a small room bi-amping, active c/o etc is a waste of time.
For farfield hi-fi use line level BSC should be used.
sreten.
sreten said:
That's a good point. The BR-1 has a full 6dB of BaffleStep Compensation, IIRC - where studio monitors typically have little since they are used nearfield, on a console against a wall.
One could modify the BR-1 crossover to remove it.... and gain a lot of sensitivity in the process.
As a follow-up:
I've been pursuing this problem as a mental exercise - and because I like small monitors... They seem ideally suited for those of us who live in small, restricted quarters and can only listen at modest SPL's without taking on the neighbors.
Can't find or afford some "real" Ls-3/5a's, I gave my NS-10s to my daughter (good riddance, perhaps? ) - but I'm in need of some small "bookshelf" type speakers (or "mini-towers").
So, just for laughs, I'm going to build them. I'm hoping to follow on the path of the BBC designers and the NS-10 designers (although with the heavy emphasis on the BBC group) - and I'd like to think that I'm pursuing their original plans/needs - but using somewhat more modern techniques. It might be possible, but perhaps I'm deluding myself... In any event - should be fun.
I invite comments from other forum members who think a small monitor might be useful! Here's what I'm going to do to start:
SMALL (sealed) enclosure - something between .25 and .50 cu. ft.
3-Way design - active crossovers at ~300 and ~3,000Hz).
Current plan is to use a 3" mid, 1" tweeter and something like the Tang Band 5" sub plus an 8" passive radiator to cover the bottom end. Smooth midrange, good on-axis tweeter, active crossover (plus LT if needed - gently, possible "BBC Dip" to emulate the originals, variable BSC to accomodate different placements)...
Any suggestions are welcomed - in the meantime I'll slog forward blindly...
Regards,
Bill
I've been pursuing this problem as a mental exercise - and because I like small monitors...
They seem ideally suited for those of us who live in small, restricted quarters and can only listen at modest SPL's without taking on the neighbors.Can't find or afford some "real" Ls-3/5a's, I gave my NS-10s to my daughter (good riddance, perhaps?
) - but I'm in need of some small "bookshelf" type speakers (or "mini-towers").So, just for laughs, I'm going to build them. I'm hoping to follow on the path of the BBC designers and the NS-10 designers (although with the heavy emphasis on the BBC group) - and I'd like to think that I'm pursuing their original plans/needs - but using somewhat more modern techniques. It might be possible, but perhaps I'm deluding myself...
In any event - should be fun.I invite comments from other forum members who think a small monitor might be useful! Here's what I'm going to do to start:
SMALL (sealed) enclosure - something between .25 and .50 cu. ft.
3-Way design - active crossovers at ~300 and ~3,000Hz).
Current plan is to use a 3" mid, 1" tweeter and something like the Tang Band 5" sub plus an 8" passive radiator to cover the bottom end. Smooth midrange, good on-axis tweeter, active crossover (plus LT if needed - gently, possible "BBC Dip" to emulate the originals, variable BSC to accomodate different placements)...
Any suggestions are welcomed - in the meantime I'll slog forward blindly...
Regards,
Bill
No dont try the Linn Kan, it is too coloured. It's like a 3/5a with a better (and louder) tweeter, hence more detail.
The BBC dip was a xover correction for the Kef B110b driver used in the 3/5a...there is some info on Harbeths site & the "http://www.nutshellhifi.com/library/speaker-design2.html by Lynn Olson
For a monitor you want consisitency, so you need drivers which have been around (and probably will be) for a long time.
I would suggest something from Seas 17 series (P17rex, CB17rcy/p etc) & tweeter to suit.
Pick your requiremnts of a desired f3/spl/size - then you can choose drivers.
The BBC dip was a xover correction for the Kef B110b driver used in the 3/5a...there is some info on Harbeths site & the "http://www.nutshellhifi.com/library/speaker-design2.html by Lynn Olson
For a monitor you want consisitency, so you need drivers which have been around (and probably will be) for a long time.
I would suggest something from Seas 17 series (P17rex, CB17rcy/p etc) & tweeter to suit.
Pick your requiremnts of a desired f3/spl/size - then you can choose drivers.
I have always been curious about the ls3/5a , would love to own a pair but good examples are rare and expensive.
So I was thinking why not build one? Obviously drivers are rare and expensive as well , so I thought why not use current new production drivers that match (or come close to) the original spec.
Surely one could come close to the original sound provided the drivers were chosen for similar sound qualities.
Anyone interested in the idea?
So I was thinking why not build one? Obviously drivers are rare and expensive as well , so I thought why not use current new production drivers that match (or come close to) the original spec.
Surely one could come close to the original sound provided the drivers were chosen for similar sound qualities.
Anyone interested in the idea?
Why would you want to own any LS3/5s? They are beautifully built, but are not a high-fidelity speaker by any stretch of the imagination. They were designed for one purpose: that of (very) near-field monitoring in outside broadcast mobile vans. Can you honestly live with an upper-bass Q of 1.2?
(Lovely midrange mind you)
(Lovely midrange mind you)
Yes I'd always thought that was a good option. I'm planning that myself but with a different tweeter. There is a lot of data out there on the B110. There are two offical LS3/5a X-overs depending on whether you have an "11 ohm" or a "15ohm" version plus three or four others with less complexity. I have them if you are interested but "Goggling" will probably get you most of them.
In looking for info on the LS-3/5a's I saw several references to a modern "clone" which used different drivers but the links were all broken or the site was shut down. Somewhere I scribbled down the URL but seem to have misplaced it for the moment...
Personally, I'm less interested in attempting a clone than I am in putting together something which is aimed at the original *application* but may be quite different in the approach. Hats off to the original BBC guys - quite an accomplishment! And kudos to the Yamaha guys as well - if only for such a good marketing job.. Surely, with the more modern tools, drivers and other advances (e.g. active EQ/crossovers, etc.) we can come up with something updated????
Regards,
Bill
Personally, I'm less interested in attempting a clone than I am in putting together something which is aimed at the original *application* but may be quite different in the approach. Hats off to the original BBC guys - quite an accomplishment! And kudos to the Yamaha guys as well - if only for such a good marketing job..
Surely, with the more modern tools, drivers and other advances (e.g. active EQ/crossovers, etc.) we can come up with something updated????Regards,
Bill
Ap. I am currently using the old Celestion HF1300 (still in production as a Coles CE3000 I think, apparently they bought the tooling from Celestion) But I have a couple of others I'd like to try, I've got Focal Ti90 and old Audax 1" cloth domes (circa 1977?). Just as a matter of history the BBC used both the HF1300 and the Audax at various times but I guess you know that. The site I've used on the LS3/5a suggests that the difference between 11Ohm and 15 was a change in the B110 and they quote the actual Kef model Nos. which are on the magnet or chassis. I suspect one way of telling is to see if the wires from the voice coil to the chassis are visible from the outside in the actual cone material but I may be wrong about that. I get the impression that DAVE at Planet 10 is a good source of data on B110s. By the way people are always going on about the recessed mid but the mid range peak (of the B110) was taken out by a conventional LCR network where it would be very easy for the DIYer to vary the resistor and achieve a good variation in the mid range. In one of the BBC mongraphs one of their engineers speaks cheerfully about their paranoia over emphasis at 2-3k hz.
OK, I was being a bit harsh on them. It's just that they sound horrible on male speech.
I agree that a model using TS parameters shows a Q of around 0.75 for the enclosure, but this does not tie in with the published response curves (even those in the original BBC report RD1976/29) which show a hump of between 3 and 4dB in the upper-bass. This sort of hump is to be expected from a Q of between 1.2 and 1.4.
The upper-bass (around 120Hz) response of the LS3/5 is puzzling. Certainly the JR149 (a much better sounding speaker IMO) had a much smoother response in this area.
I agree that a model using TS parameters shows a Q of around 0.75 for the enclosure, but this does not tie in with the published response curves (even those in the original BBC report RD1976/29) which show a hump of between 3 and 4dB in the upper-bass. This sort of hump is to be expected from a Q of between 1.2 and 1.4.
The upper-bass (around 120Hz) response of the LS3/5 is puzzling. Certainly the JR149 (a much better sounding speaker IMO) had a much smoother response in this area.
Ouroboros: From memory I thoguth they were pretty good on speech (maybe my memory is rose tinted).
I think the extra bass bump (greater than the Qtc of 0.8) was due to the xover shelving down the mid (BSC), this also resulted in the low sensitivity of 82db.
Jonathon: for tweeters I was thinking about the new Audax TW025a0 or the classic Peerless 810665. Any comments?
I think the extra bass bump (greater than the Qtc of 0.8) was due to the xover shelving down the mid (BSC), this also resulted in the low sensitivity of 82db.
Jonathon: for tweeters I was thinking about the new Audax TW025a0 or the classic Peerless 810665. Any comments?
Sorry, no. I haven't used either. If you do want feed back re; those specifically then just throw up another thread asking for peoples experience and you'll have no shortage of people giving their opinion as to whether they are pure&wonderful or to quote an English reviewer "like listening to an accordian played at the bottom of a plastic dustbin"
By the way I'm not sure who you are using to source your speakers but you may find "WES Components" at Ashfield useful. Their site is a bit slow but they are now stocking Peerless, Scanspeak and others and over the years they have tended to be v.reasonably priced. Ten minutes walk from Ashfield station.
By the way I'm not sure who you are using to source your speakers but you may find "WES Components" at Ashfield useful. Their site is a bit slow but they are now stocking Peerless, Scanspeak and others and over the years they have tended to be v.reasonably priced. Ten minutes walk from Ashfield station.
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