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Old 10th June 2004, 10:10 PM   #1
RyanC is offline RyanC  United States
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Default Ok guys here is an interesting project-

Hello,

As a professional musican/recording engineer I have always been highly disapointed with the options for live keyboard/piano combo amps. So I thinking about building my own here is what I am looking for:

1. I want somthing that is stero-ish from one box- Somthing like this-
http://www.music123.com/Motion-Sound...S-i97949.music

2. Needs to be less than 50lbs. with amps- I plan to use the Stewart amps that are very light (about 10lbs for a 400wpc@8 amp) And it needs to fit in my car an Acura Integra- with room for other stuff-

3. Needs to be very loud- Not that I will always need it but I want it to easily compete with a loud drummer with no need for a PA- so say at least 120+dB with moderate distortion- (it needs to go well into ear plugs required loudness). I'm not trying to specify an exact figure here- But there is no way it can be too loud- One note here- when an speaker is amplifying a specific insturment only it always sounds less loud then a whole mix- So 120dB RMS from a CD will sound much much louder then my keyboard measureing at the same level.

4. Budget including amps and everything = $1000 or so.

5. Resonably accurate- say 40hz-18k or so- I do some left hand bass stuff- so it will need a fair amount of LF extension- However left hand bass gigs are always quiter gigs than keys gigs so this may not be that critical (I can crank the EQ up on my keyboard)

6. No freq specific problems- EG some setups might distort alot at 500hz- This may not be that noticable in a full mix but it sucks when the B above middle C always distorts!

7. bullet-proof. It needs to be strong- no fabric, no knobs to easily break off etc. No ribbon tweeters or anything else that is super delicate. No speakers that are super expensive to repair/replace-

8. Dispersion- Yes please!! I cannot guarantee any type of great placement and It is nice when the rest of the band can hear you even if you amp is not facing them- so full bore 180 degree dispeersion (when sitting on the gound) would be nice.


The Ideas I have so far:

1. Some sort of line array type setup with a built in sub kinda thing- a bunch of full rangers pointed in every different direction with a bass driver-

2. Somthing with two quasi -full range horns like 800 and up with a single mid bass driver-

3. A bunch of full range coaxials pointed all over- car speakers maybe??

4. ???? what do you all think- Show me some interesting high sensitivy drivers or other ideas!!

Thanks again,

Ryan
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Old 11th June 2004, 12:16 AM   #2
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I hope your Integra is a hatchback.
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Old 11th June 2004, 01:19 AM   #3
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Adire Audio's Hurricane kit at $449 each will get you what you want. Just go sealed with the maelstrom in 1.5 ft3 for a smaller box and it's only down 5 at 40hz verses the big vented that goes down to 30. Build a pair for placement and dispersion issues. A pair will do everything you want except the 50lb limit and will have high quality sound.

A homebrew set using a highly efficient pro sound woofer, midbass, and cheap but tweaked high output titanium bullet tweeter will work too with your only problem being getting reasonably flat down to 40hz due to large cab sizes.
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Old 11th June 2004, 04:42 PM   #4
RyanC is offline RyanC  United States
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Yep it is a hatchback-

The Hurracane looks cool but it's way too big- I don't need flat out to 30hz- Really more like 6 or even 10dB down at 40 would be fine. There is a big difference in reqirements-

But would you wan't to carry two of those all over the place? I don't think so. Still looking at 50lbs (or so) total not just under 100lbs-

Does anyone have any experience with the galaxy audio full ranger (or mostly full ranger)-

I'm thinking 4 or even 6 of those and one 12" driver like the emenince deltalite might do pretty well? I just don't know how they sound (the galaxy driver). thanks again,

Ryan
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Old 11th June 2004, 06:05 PM   #5
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Parts Express #290-380. Look it up.

Modelled in WinISD, I get -8dB @ 40hz with a 1.3 cuft vented box tuned to 39hz--just what the doctor ordered? With some *CAREFUL* stuffing, you can probably shrink the box size even more. 100 watts into these drivers will yield 114dB through the passband--2 drivers in a box twice the size will yeild 120dB. The only thing left is the mid and treble horns, and crossover.

Any questions?
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Old 11th June 2004, 06:44 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally posted by RyanC
Yep it is a hatchback-

The Hurracane looks cool but it's way too big- I don't need flat out to 30hz- Really more like 6 or even 10dB down at 40 would be fine. There is a big difference in reqirements-

But would you wan't to carry two of those all over the place? I don't think so. Still looking at 50lbs (or so) total not just under 100lbs-

Does anyone have any experience with the galaxy audio full ranger (or mostly full ranger)-

I'm thinking 4 or even 6 of those and one 12" driver like the emenince deltalite might do pretty well? I just don't know how they sound (the galaxy driver). thanks again,

Ryan
I was saying that if you go sealed with the Maelstrom on the Hurricane in 1.5ft cubed, you could do the whole thing in about 2.5 cubic ft outside dimensions which is quite small and you'd have a great speaker from 40hz on up. Flat response, great sound, efficient and 500 watss of power handling, and will do 120db.
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Old 12th June 2004, 03:19 AM   #7
RyanC is offline RyanC  United States
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Cool,

Thanks- I guess what I am more looking for is ideas in the higher frequency department, and ideas about the whole cab-

I'm not that worried about finding a good low frequency driver.

I don't think I really explained this well enough- Bullet tweets- 3ways- what have you, are great for speakers that are placed left and right and you sit in the listening position-

My typical live setup is with the amp behind me- on the floor with no stand. This is not a hi-fi environment and even if I did carry that around it is still not what I want- i used to have some small studio monitors that I would sit on my keyboard- That is not as nice as having an amp behind you- It feels more like a studio and less like an instrument that is radiating sound- Hell when I am sitting playing a steinway grand piano I am actually sitting in the worst place to fully apriciate what the instrument sounds like!!! The sound about 10ft out with the lid pointed at you is technically better!! But it feels right when you are sitting there because it feels like an instrument-

The main thing here is directionality and the room- When it "feels" like an instrument you can hear/feal the room you are in-
This is why the studio monitors are too in your face. At least for my taste-

That's why I wan't the sound to radiate in all directions from the combo amp- up, down, toward me, toward the drummer- toward the wall behind me- So it feels right- And so that certain frequencies arn't beaming out to the crowd, and hurting their ears- while I am barly heaing them-

So what I am looking for is ideas about that part- crating some kind of "sound orb" that radiates sound in all directions- including up and over- My keyboard has an eq on it so if it is a little bright due to a bright room then I can compensate for that- But if the room is bright then the drums will be bright- and the gutar, and horn and . . . so . . .

Does anyone here have any experience with the galaxy audio drivers? They stock them at PE- It seems about right for me- I could place them all over the amp firing in all directions- Then use that gold sound or a maelstrom or whatever is lightest and most effecient for a low end driver. anyway thanks alot guys-

Ryan
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Old 12th June 2004, 03:46 AM   #8
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Look into Parts Express 5", 295-010. I don't see a 50lb. 120db full range, omni directional, that sounds decent, as being a very realistic goal for less than a $1000. If you somehow had one, and used it's potential you would bleed into every mike on stage, and sound men would conspire against you. 4 or 8 of the P.E. 5's could give reasonable coverage. If you want wide dispersion for the higher frequencies it needs to come up off the ground. Pole mount it, slightly over your head, to the sub cabinet, with some speakers pointing at you. The rest of the 5's should have a clear shot to the other band members heads. I hope you work out something suitable. I would like a small omni full range P.A. too.
Franz
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Old 12th June 2004, 08:26 AM   #9
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Ok Ryan,

You're interested making some kind of arrays using lots of drivers. Using the Parts Express 5", 295-010 , you could go 2 routes. For either route use 6" PVC pipe for your cabs to make them light weight and plywood for your baffle cutting out about 1/3 of the pvc lengthwise to slide onto the baffle grooves with drivers mounted and wired already. Stuff some fiberfill and cap both ends. Use epoxy to glue the baffle to the PVC and paint with truck bed liner. 1/2 or more of the 6" PVC will get you the volume needed for those drivers sealed on 5.5" centers and flat response down to 130-140hz. Each needs 1.2 to 2.5 litres.

2 routes for the arrays:

Bessel wiring- The link I had is dead, so it will take some research to find, but you'd want the 7 driver amplitude alignment. Use 6 of the PE's above and 1 titantium bullet tweeter in the middle. The bessel arrangement makes an array disperse like a single driver, so you don't have to worry about the vertical dispersion limitation of a line array. Make 4 to place how you want for horizontal dispersion to the band and croud. Cost to make about $100 each and would be about 40" tall.

Straight line array- I think you'd need to go with more drivers in each to make them taller and maybe 2 bullet tweeters to keep up in the highs. If the band isn't using line arrays then it would be hard to balance because with a line array the SPL decreases at 3db per doubling distance up to a certain point depending on line length and frequency vs 6db per doubling of distance for a point source. This would make your keyboard louder in the back of the venue than at the front in relation to the rest of the music.

The sealed maelstrom in a 2 cubic ft sealed box will deliver the bottom end down to 40hz for you and you could make it downfiring, so placement wouldn't matter.
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