Looking for a compact 2-way that could be used for home theater by day and party by night. Six of them with 100W of power crossed over at 100Hz.
Would a HE8.1 work? HE10.1? Something better?
In party mode, two of them would be moved to the adjacent dining room while four would be positioned around the living room which is 15 x 25 with 9 foot ceilings.
Small size is appreciated from an aesthetic as well as practical point of view. Should be hi-fi at normal listening levels and robust and not too harsh at party levels.
Thanks.
Would a HE8.1 work? HE10.1? Something better?
In party mode, two of them would be moved to the adjacent dining room while four would be positioned around the living room which is 15 x 25 with 9 foot ceilings.
Small size is appreciated from an aesthetic as well as practical point of view. Should be hi-fi at normal listening levels and robust and not too harsh at party levels.
Thanks.
When working only down to 100 Hz, it is quite easy to get them to handle 100 watts. You may get 200 watts out of a midbass driver if the bass is filtered out depending on the slope of the filter. An 8" midbass driver can give you increased efficiency and power handling and thus more output. I have seen a review of the He10 that wasn't very favourable. If you could live with the size of it, I'd go with a 2 way with an 8" ... seas, peerless and vifa are a good place to start.
Here's an example with Vifa drivers:
And here is the site it came from if interested
In your case I'd say you could make them smaller - say an aperiodic design or a sealed box. I'd say you could get away with half the volume in this case.
With the tweeter you may wish to padd it for your intended use. Speakers with a flat response can be fatigueing especially when played loud. If you padd the tweeter by 2 or 3 db to give a drooping response it will be more listenable at louder levels.
Here's an example with Vifa drivers:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
And here is the site it came from if interested
In your case I'd say you could make them smaller - say an aperiodic design or a sealed box. I'd say you could get away with half the volume in this case.
With the tweeter you may wish to padd it for your intended use. Speakers with a flat response can be fatigueing especially when played loud. If you padd the tweeter by 2 or 3 db to give a drooping response it will be more listenable at louder levels.
hi
i think it would be best to go for 8.1 , best would suited be pro audio 8 inch transducers
when going in for your woofers - check for a large roll m surround or accordian surround woofers - rcf s (lab series) are very good and well suited for this - above 100 w atleast - for high spl
construct small compact ported cabinets with ply - power the drive units well - i think you shpuld be able to blast it well
also try and put in a tweeter like the jbl 2412 i 1/2 inch titaniums to match - high spl s without compression
best of luck - have fun as i know these will sound much better than mellow sounding hi fi weanies
suranjan
transducer design engineer
i think it would be best to go for 8.1 , best would suited be pro audio 8 inch transducers
when going in for your woofers - check for a large roll m surround or accordian surround woofers - rcf s (lab series) are very good and well suited for this - above 100 w atleast - for high spl
construct small compact ported cabinets with ply - power the drive units well - i think you shpuld be able to blast it well
also try and put in a tweeter like the jbl 2412 i 1/2 inch titaniums to match - high spl s without compression
best of luck - have fun as i know these will sound much better than mellow sounding hi fi weanies
suranjan
transducer design engineer
Thank you both for some excellent food for thought.
We'd like to have these made by mid June so I don't have the time to research, procure, test, tweek, test, etc a new design so I was looking for an existing one.
I've heard glowing and not so glowing reviews of the HE10.1. PE article of Feb 2003 was not a useful review especially considering the background of authors.
The only reference to 2412 tweeter was as part of a built monitor. I couldn't find it as an individual part.
What factors indicate a woofer or tweeter will be good at high SPL? Look for high efficiency and power handling? I've generally ignored power handling.
We'd like to have these made by mid June so I don't have the time to research, procure, test, tweek, test, etc a new design so I was looking for an existing one.
I've heard glowing and not so glowing reviews of the HE10.1. PE article of Feb 2003 was not a useful review especially considering the background of authors.
The only reference to 2412 tweeter was as part of a built monitor. I couldn't find it as an individual part.
What factors indicate a woofer or tweeter will be good at high SPL? Look for high efficiency and power handling? I've generally ignored power handling.
Hmmm..... impedance requirements are not given, 4 ohm OK ?
Presumably with a AV receiver and using internal c/o functions.
Crossing over at 100Hz means compact sealed boxes are your
best bet, reflexing will not really help here and require much
bigger boxes.
TBH I think a 4 ohm MTM 2x6.5"/1" (dayton D3's or similar)
in 15 to 20 litre sealed boxes would be fine and would give
good sensitivity, over 90dB albiet being a 4 ohm speaker.
sreten.
Presumably with a AV receiver and using internal c/o functions.
Crossing over at 100Hz means compact sealed boxes are your
best bet, reflexing will not really help here and require much
bigger boxes.
TBH I think a 4 ohm MTM 2x6.5"/1" (dayton D3's or similar)
in 15 to 20 litre sealed boxes would be fine and would give
good sensitivity, over 90dB albiet being a 4 ohm speaker.
sreten.Compact 2-way
Conventional 2-way
Seas CB17RCY/P woofer with Morel MDT 33 tweeter (costly)
or Vifa XT tweeter
The Seas looks very good from the viewpoint of even response
and needs only about a 10" x 8" x 6" sealed box.
Two of these units(4 ohm) with the Morel might really sing.
The Morel is said to be very good sounding, though more efficient than the Seas. I have used Morel tweeters years ago, and they are bullet-proof with 200 watts power handling in the midband.
One could substitute a less costly Vifa XT 25 or 19 series with no loss in fidelty from what I've read.
Some distance needed from the TV screen - no shieding.
Non-Conventional
B&C Coaxial 8 CX T which handles power, 94 dB efficient, and is said to be very nice sounding. More expensive, but possibly worth it. Needs about 15 watts to run you out of the room.
Good to 75 Hz. Available at Zalytron. No shielding.
Tim
Conventional 2-way
Seas CB17RCY/P woofer with Morel MDT 33 tweeter (costly)
or Vifa XT tweeter
The Seas looks very good from the viewpoint of even response
and needs only about a 10" x 8" x 6" sealed box.
Two of these units(4 ohm) with the Morel might really sing.
The Morel is said to be very good sounding, though more efficient than the Seas. I have used Morel tweeters years ago, and they are bullet-proof with 200 watts power handling in the midband.
One could substitute a less costly Vifa XT 25 or 19 series with no loss in fidelty from what I've read.
Some distance needed from the TV screen - no shieding.
Non-Conventional
B&C Coaxial 8 CX T which handles power, 94 dB efficient, and is said to be very nice sounding. More expensive, but possibly worth it. Needs about 15 watts to run you out of the room.
Good to 75 Hz. Available at Zalytron. No shielding.
Tim
Did you check out the monitor Adire had in their warehouse or would that be overkill? 
http://www.adireaudio.com/pro_services/hurricane.htm
Yeah, that's probably too much.
http://www.adireaudio.com/pro_services/hurricane.htm
Yeah, that's probably too much.
sreten, Currently we are using a low end receiver that I am loaning to him partly to see what it can do. It has the TI Equibit digital amplifier board with six 100W channels but only recommends 6ohm. He may could up with a receiver but if he needs to run 4ohm loads he will go separates. We are starting with speakers.
TimM, interested in anything that works. Not concerned with conventional v. unconventional. Proven design means I can just order parts and start building.
Timn8ter, I saw them but didn't get a chance to listen to them. But that gave me the idea to consider the HE10.1. The Hurricane's size is the problem.
I'm wondering how I can determine in general whether a speaker would be decent at high SPL and not melt. At this point, I'm not even sure what SPL we were running this weekend but my friend is convinced he needs 110dB. Personally, I won't be in the room if he runs it that loud. He can pack in excess of a 100 people in his house so I guess we wants to make sure all of them suffer some form of hearing loss.
TimM, interested in anything that works. Not concerned with conventional v. unconventional. Proven design means I can just order parts and start building.
Timn8ter, I saw them but didn't get a chance to listen to them. But that gave me the idea to consider the HE10.1. The Hurricane's size is the problem.
I'm wondering how I can determine in general whether a speaker would be decent at high SPL and not melt. At this point, I'm not even sure what SPL we were running this weekend but my friend is convinced he needs 110dB. Personally, I won't be in the room if he runs it that loud. He can pack in excess of a 100 people in his house so I guess we wants to make sure all of them suffer some form of hearing loss.
Output
Ultrachrome,
The B&C would probably work well.
If you want that kind of output, I'd stick with something that can handle some power, and the bass unit is 400 watt capable, and although you don't have that currently, tomorrow is another day.
Cost is $175 ea, plus crossovers (and box). You can build them from their schematics, or Zalytron can for $100 each.
You'll also need an enclosure, but plans should be part of the package.
www.zalytron.com/
Click on B&C, then the 8 CX T. Drop down tabs will give you all the pertinent info.
There are cheaper ways to go, probably something with smoother response, too, but right off, I can't think of a better sounding, more durable solution with serious output capabilities for the money. Pro sound origin, yet everyone that's had them liked them, so no discouraging words.
Tim
Ultrachrome,
The B&C would probably work well.
If you want that kind of output, I'd stick with something that can handle some power, and the bass unit is 400 watt capable, and although you don't have that currently, tomorrow is another day.
Cost is $175 ea, plus crossovers (and box). You can build them from their schematics, or Zalytron can for $100 each.
You'll also need an enclosure, but plans should be part of the package.
www.zalytron.com/
Click on B&C, then the 8 CX T. Drop down tabs will give you all the pertinent info.
There are cheaper ways to go, probably something with smoother response, too, but right off, I can't think of a better sounding, more durable solution with serious output capabilities for the money. Pro sound origin, yet everyone that's had them liked them, so no discouraging words.
Tim
I have 6 HE8.1's for the same setup and they work great, but definitely need a sub. If he has room for the 10.1's go that route to make the sub optional for music. They'll both go plenty loud.
I'm into dipoles now and I'm in the process of converting my 8.1's to dipole use by incorporating some extra bass support in W baffles at the bottom while maintaining a compact speaker.
I'm into dipoles now and I'm in the process of converting my 8.1's to dipole use by incorporating some extra bass support in W baffles at the bottom while maintaining a compact speaker.
hi
for a good spl - you should be looking for - alumunium - large vc (for good power handling)
a large speder in a cast chassis
reinforced cone
m roll surround
the RCF and 2412 were as reference - you can check these out on the net and RCF catalogue and then - go in for similar speakers
which will give you a tight punchy bass performance - accrate , neat and spacious - open mids , and ull need his to match like the 2412
i think the kind of performance you are looking for - a go between - demanding home theatre - and party
you need good rugged stuff - that can be powered well easily - you can borrow more amps - as required provided you have the speakers (which have a good power handling)
in pro audio imp and all are not much of a prob amps are designed to push loads
you need to go in for - semi pro audio stuff
hi - fi is not exactly a performer here ,
suranjan
for a good spl - you should be looking for - alumunium - large vc (for good power handling)
a large speder in a cast chassis
reinforced cone
m roll surround
the RCF and 2412 were as reference - you can check these out on the net and RCF catalogue and then - go in for similar speakers
which will give you a tight punchy bass performance - accrate , neat and spacious - open mids , and ull need his to match like the 2412
i think the kind of performance you are looking for - a go between - demanding home theatre - and party
you need good rugged stuff - that can be powered well easily - you can borrow more amps - as required provided you have the speakers (which have a good power handling)
in pro audio imp and all are not much of a prob amps are designed to push loads
you need to go in for - semi pro audio stuff
hi - fi is not exactly a performer here ,
suranjan
I have 10.1s and I think they would do what you want nicely
to get to 110 db you only need 32 watts...they'll handle that ALL DAY LONG(ask me how I know) the only 2 weak areas are low bass(-3 at @50hz) and tweeter detail-the low bass is expected the tweeter detail only us "audiophools" would criticize
I remember a post by Dan Wiggins(on the DIYspeakerlist) where he talked about someone using 10.1s in a sound reinforcement application(a church ) where IIRC they turned it up till the 200watt amp started clipping just a bit and do the whole show like that
and at $300 for a pair in kit form what more could you want?
to get to 110 db you only need 32 watts...they'll handle that ALL DAY LONG(ask me how I know) the only 2 weak areas are low bass(-3 at @50hz) and tweeter detail-the low bass is expected the tweeter detail only us "audiophools" would criticize
I remember a post by Dan Wiggins(on the DIYspeakerlist) where he talked about someone using 10.1s in a sound reinforcement application(a church ) where IIRC they turned it up till the 200watt amp started clipping just a bit and do the whole show like that
and at $300 for a pair in kit form what more could you want?
Robert,
Regarding the lack of detail on your HE10.1's : There's an easy tweak on those tweets by adjusting the foam rubber pieces down in the throat of the tweeter. Just add or subtract to tune them to your taste. Also, some of the stated values on the resistors in my kits were off by as much as 50% which will throw crossover off, so you might want to check those.
Regarding the lack of detail on your HE10.1's : There's an easy tweak on those tweets by adjusting the foam rubber pieces down in the throat of the tweeter. Just add or subtract to tune them to your taste. Also, some of the stated values on the resistors in my kits were off by as much as 50% which will throw crossover off, so you might want to check those.
ultrachrome said:
How big is too big? What size can you live with? Would it be feasible to have smaller lower output bookshelves for home theatre and just have a stereo pair of big PA cabs for the parties, then using the other speakers to fill in another room if desired.
hunter audio said:
For bass rolled off at 100 Hz he is better with sealed or aperiodic enclosures, especially for integrating with a sub.
ultrachrome said:
Look at the frequency response of the driver and not just the nominal sensitivity, and also consider if it is stated at 1w 1m or 2.83V which is the same for 8 ohms but for 4 ohms, 2.83V is actually 2 watts and thus the sensitivity is +3db. What you will find with high efficiency drivers is that they are not so efficient when you tame the response and take out the peaks. Efficiency is achieved by:
1. increasing SD ie. bigger drivers for a given bandwidth - double the cone area and you get ~+3db sensitivity
2. narrower bandwidth
This is why the Vifa P21 driver 8" is 3db more sensitive than the 6.5" P17. Both are easy to work with, and have a smooth response. If you did an MTM with the P21 you would have an increased efficiency ... 94 db 1watt 1m with 4 ohms, thus 2.83 efficiency would be 97 db. This is assuming no bafflestep, which if included would reduce the efficiency back by 3db. The power handling of these drivers used only to 100 Hz would be considerable - they should be comfortable with a 200 watt amplifier, and if you go anything more powerful than that then you are probably spending too much on the amps.
A tweeter which may interest you is the Morel MDT 37 It is a dome tweeter with a modified face plate to increase efficiency to 93db 1w1m with 200 watts RMS power handling. It will give you ~6db more output than most tweeters given the higher power handling and efficiency.
ultrachrome said:
While you are starting with the speakers, it pays to consider the system as a whole before you buy anything. Otherwise you will lock yourself in to something that you aren't happy with. To get small speakers to play loud they need more power. You can't make good decisions about the speakers without considering the amplifiers as well - how much power you want and what will be the impedance of the speakers.
As your speakers won't handle bass, the power is not so much xmax limited but rather thermally limited. Look at the RMS power rating which will tell you what the driver will handle without melting. This does not however tell you if the speaker is listenable at this volume as the distortion may be unpleasant.
In practical terms you are not so much concerned with when it will melt but when distortion becomes objectionable. Speakers normally sound terrible before they are damaged and the cause is normally an underpowered amp that is clipping.
johninCR said:
John, I knew you couldn't resist! I think it's time for you to seriously consider joining DA
(dipolaholics anon)
hunter audio said:
I'm not sure I agree that he should be too concerned with the construction of the drivers - whether they are cast or stamped baskets, aluminium or steel, etc. They are a means to an end, but he needs to consider the actual performance - a good frequency response without breakup in the passband, efficiency, power handling, size. No doubt you know more than us about these factors as a designer, but it would not be good to choose driver A over B as it has a cast basket, etc.
As suranjan said, pro audio amps are very robust and may be worth considering. Fan noise is not a problem for parties and you don't have to worry as much about them - they can handle more punishment and they won't cook where a hifi amp might. You also don't have to worry as much about someone destroying them, and they will handle more difficult impedance loads.
Hifi is not a performer?
It depends ... PA drivers have more power and efficiency due to their size. Design a crossover to make them as flat a hifi and give them the same size and bandwidth and the differences start to diminish. It all has to do with tradeoffs and what your goals are. If you want a flat response, easy to use drivers and you want them small then hifi seems to me the way to go.
Food for thought:
Speakers sound louder when they are distorting. When speakers are designed for lower distortion, they don't sound as loud and in fact you can turn them up more before you think they are loud.
Here is an image of the morel tweeter:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Re: Re: High SPL compact monitor for home theater / party
LOL
I'm having serious withdrawals right now because I sold my arrays and I can't wait to get the first pair finished and tuned. Then I'll go on such a listening binge that I'll never finish the other 4.
No meetings for me...... at least until I hear something better. Planet 10's got me thinking about trying my hand at bipoles.
paulspencer said:
John, I knew you couldn't resist! I think it's time for you to seriously consider joining DA
(dipolaholics anon)
LOL
I'm having serious withdrawals right now because I sold my arrays and I can't wait to get the first pair finished and tuned. Then I'll go on such a listening binge that I'll never finish the other 4.
No meetings for me...... at least until I hear something better. Planet 10's got me thinking about trying my hand at bipoles.
I think the Hurricane/ He 10.1 speakers are worth considering.
Get the 10.1's for each channel, then:
Make separate Hurricane boxes, as subwoofers.This way they can be hidden a bit
Maybe start with 2 subs and see how it goes. Maybe one in the doorway between the 2 rooms, one in the big room.
Better would be 2 in the big room, one in the smaller...
Get the 10.1's for each channel, then:
Make separate Hurricane boxes, as subwoofers.This way they can be hidden a bit
Maybe start with 2 subs and see how it goes. Maybe one in the doorway between the 2 rooms, one in the big room.
Better would be 2 in the big room, one in the smaller...
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