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Old 28th April 2004, 07:43 PM   #21
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Default Midbass

I have used an 80 Hz Edgarhorn (straight horn) with D130F drivers (old JBL labeled for Fender) for midbass duties. These units proved to be fairly intense sounding, but very musical. The diffuculty was actually sufficient room size. To get decent integration I needed to either move well back from my normal listening position, or somehow adjust the propagation of the midbass.

I have plans for folded 40 Hz horns which I intend to build sometime soon, in the hopes of spanning the large gap up to 450-500 Hz, though unlikely...

I have also built a bass horn for duties down to 30 Hz which uses a pair of 10" drivers. Weighs about 140 kilos at ~ 122 cm square x 46 cm (48" x 48" x 18"), so I really don't need the 40 Hz horns, but I believe that a really great 3-way system could be managed with a midbass that would span 50 Hz up to 500 Hz as the foundation. Stay tuned...

Electrovoice or EV built some good midbass drivers for years, and a friend is using a pair of 12" in his 100 Hz midbass horn and they span up to 1000 Hz.
The EV 640 is also a very good horn for a 2" driver, particularily the TAD 4001.
I have heard the TAD 1201 and it does provide some pop. Same is true of the JBL D123, but to a slightly lesser extent.

The 1" TAD 2001 will play from ~ 600 Hz up to about 16K on a good horn. Lively two way is possible with, say, a pair of 12" and the TAD.

I have heard several systems with the TAD 1601 as a bass driver in a direct radiator with horns on top and they do a good job.

I like dipole bass too -- less room interaction, uncolored, natural sounding bass. The midbass from a horn, however, will pin you to your chair with, for example, kick drum, with no sense of strain or distortion from the dynamic peaks.

Probably missed a few points...

Tim
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Old 28th April 2004, 08:43 PM   #22
Ken L is offline Ken L  United States
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Default Re: Midbass

Quote:
Originally posted by Tim Moorman
To get decent integration I needed to either move well back from my normal listening position, or somehow adjust the propagation of the midbass.

I have been thinking very much that I might have a problem with this also, which is why I remain undecided on a 135 hz down solution. I wil probably go with whatever puts me the closest to matching the dispersion of the Azurahorns.

Soooooooooooo, since the sealed subs sound passable, I decided to just go ahead with the upper ranges and see how that worked out. If I wind up with something really nice from there on up, by that time I will have a solution in mind.

If I'm not happy with my results and wind up starting over then I'll probably be looking for a different solution in the midbass area anyhow _grin_

Regards

Ken L
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Old 28th April 2004, 09:01 PM   #23
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Default 2206

Rocky,
The JBL 2206 looks to be a typically fine JBL driver, and would probably work very well in a horn. I don't know of any used in commercial systems, but that doesn't mean much.

Any driver will benefit from horn loading, to some extent. You will get some on-axis efficiency gains just by limiting directivity. But for the response to remain smooth and meet your design goals, then some number crunching and/or horn design software work will be necessary.

My guess is that you could use this down to around 35 or 40 Hz in a horn optimized for low frequency. Probably wouldn't get much beyond 350-400 Hz on the upper end though.

On the high end, the horn folding may roll off some of the extension, if any folding is used, plus just horn loading the unit will narrow the passband and lower the top end. Still, with this driver you have a lot to give away, and it might work very well from 100 - 600 Hz.

Tim
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Old 28th April 2004, 09:17 PM   #24
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Default Room needed for Edgar Horn ?

Hi Tim,
How much room are we talking about here for the Edgar Horns to integrate?

SMathews
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Old 29th April 2004, 12:35 AM   #25
Rocky is offline Rocky  Norway
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After some concideration, I feel confident I will try to compromise my first horn setup by avoiding midbass horn, using instead direct radiating drivers.. This would normally force me to use an extra set of amps (as a non-loaded driver can't keep up with horns' SPL), but I am thinking of a *yet another compromise* solution I would like to hear some response on..

PHL produces a small 6,5 inch coax (PHL 1520 ) efficient enough so that I can couple 2 paralel pairs in series (4 drivers) and get 103dB/W/m, 8 ohm, direct radiation.. reaching down to about 100Hz.. I may be mixing religions here, but;

1) would it be possible to run this array paired with midfreq and hifreq horns, using passive XO (a few dBs attenuation of the horns)

2) Does anyone have an opinion on how these drivers might match a loaded 2-inch compression driver?
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Old 29th April 2004, 02:11 AM   #26
bzdang is offline bzdang  Canada
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Just in case some of you haven't been here, a source of horn knowledge - Audio Asylum High Efficiency Speaker Forum -

http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/HUG/bbs.html

some of the inmates are loudspeaker engineers during the daytime...
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Old 29th April 2004, 04:11 AM   #27
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Default Horn system

Rocky,
I wouldn't run coax pairs each side due to big comb filtering problems. Better to pair up on the midbass units such as the 2206, or others to raise efficiency up to 101 dB or better, then pad the horn down. Actually, most systems are run this way with direct radiator midbass.

Have a look at B&C midbass units. Many are near 100 dB efficiency, when paired, each channel would be near106 dB, and are available in 16 ohm.

SMathews -- The Edgar midbass probably needs 4 meters or more with the same D130F. I do believe some mods would tame this down somewhat, and Bruce Edgar would know just how to go about it.
I didn't try the EVM 15L, which is perhaps the preferred unit because I wanted to try to build a 40 or 50 Hz horn to span upwards to the mid.
The JBL 2123 10" is a great driver, now obsolete, and runs from ~100 Hz up to 4000 Hz dead flat, and works great in a midbass.

Many horn loaded the 2105 5" cone unit, including JBL in a tractrix mid horn, which sounded very good, I'm told, though not the resolution of the big compression drivers.

I do love the looks of a solid maple or mahogany wood horn, and the round horns are way cool. Edgar sells these as well in a choice of 350, 500, or 650 Hz for compresion driver mounting at $900/pr, $400/pr, $400/pr respectively. It is possible to build your own by laminating layer after layer of wood to stack up to the right length and contour, but you need a good router and patience.

Tim
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Old 29th April 2004, 06:14 AM   #28
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The efficiency of the 2206 is not very high but still quite good compared with most HiFi drivers. It is around 95 dB/w/m.
I use one in a two-way combination together with a 2344 horn and it sounds fine.
I deliberately took this one because I assumed that it performs better up to 1 kHz than any 15" would. It is one of the oldest drivers that I know that uses a glass fibre- (or whatever) paper- composite for it's cone (wich is quite fashionable nowadays).

Regards

Charles
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Old 29th April 2004, 06:49 AM   #29
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Gosh. This is almost basement blaster territory, which is what I call my 2 1/2 way using three vertically oriented 2226J's topped with a 2445J driving a B & C ME75 CD horn xovered @ 700hz. The 'half' xover to the two lower 2226J's is at about half that frequency. The 2245 is probably not the best choice for ultimate SQ, but I bought a used pair fairly cheap before I did all my homework and they're not bad up to 10K. Probably the best thing I can say about them above that is that I'm getting up to 20K pretty flat out of them but with some dips between those two frequencies. The system as a whole comes out 101-102 db/w/m and hovers around 5-6 ohms through most of the woofer's range.

One nice thing about the 2226 and I presume the 2206 also is that it can be run below its free air resonance without a huge increase in distortion due to suspension nonlinearities, and that's exactly what I'm doing here. I've tuned the BR box to 25 hz, which is wayy below the 40 hz Fs of the 2226, and then getting up to a 4 db passive boost from 25-70hz with a series C shunt L network before the woofs. One thing I like about this approach is that, in addition to adding a third octave flat extension on the bottom, its voltage gain is also above and beyond the voltage at the amp terminals, so a 300 watt amp looks like 800 watts or so where the boost is 4db, for instance. Add in room gain, and this speaker operates virtually 20hz-20,000hz as a 2.5 way. This all works without dropping the load impedance down to the one ohm region because I'm actually also flattening out the upper BR impedance peak here with this network The only significant SPL compromise is that woofer excursion peaks at 40 hz, but you still have to have it above 110db to really see the cones move at that frequency.

It's in a 20" wide 5' tall cabinet. I've found that matching the horizontal dispersions of the upper woofer and the CD horn at xover solved many of the potential issues matching a direct radiator bass with a horn hf. However, the 2226 by itself is only 97 db at that frequency. Radiation pattern narrowing matches up with the horn lateral dispersion at xover which I think really helps make a seamless transition. Then I throw in 4 db boost just below the xover frequency with a somewhat peaked *elliptic* low pass for the upper woofer only. Why elliptic? It's non ripple, and the delay increases near xover to make a smooth group delay transition to the set back horn driver vc and compensate for the naturally increasing group delay as the frequency decreases down to below 200hz. Plus, it's easy to set the notch right where JBL's graphs show a little unruly distortion behavior from the 2226, I believe around 1.5 khz in this case. Plus, it starts out rolling off almost like a first order xover before the response drops off a cliff. The two lower woofs come in right when the peaking rolls off on the low side for the upper woofer to maintain flat response. I'm rolling them off pretty close to 2nd order Butterworth which has slightly less group delay yet but the delay peaks slightly at xover. One nice thing about this arrangement, IMO, is that above 350 hz, the speaker radiates like a 2 speaker 2 way on a 3' shelf, which give a credible height simulation of 'real' musicians in the voice band and above but the two lower woofers step in to keep cone excursion (and doppler distortion) way down below that frequency except for the most massive bass dynamics.
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Old 29th April 2004, 07:43 AM   #30
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Quote:
One nice thing about the 2226 and I presume the 2206 also is that it can be run below its free air resonance without a huge increase in distortion due to suspension nonlinearities, and that's exactly what I'm doing here.
I run my 2206 in a reflex enclosure slightly larger than optimal and tuned to 45 Hz (fs = 50 Hz) and use some EQing. It gives an f3 of 40 Hz theoretically. Lower tuning would give lower cutoff frequency and more SPL capability a the lower end at the cost of les SPL capability in the 60 - 100 hz region.
At the levels I listen to nowadays it works quite well, though I don't use that one very often anymore.

Regards

Charles
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