Wide range horn confusion.. - Page 2 - diyAudio
Go Back   Home > Forums > Loudspeakers > Multi-Way

Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

Please consider donating to help us continue to serve you.

Ads on/off / Custom Title / More PMs / More album space / Advanced printing & mass image saving
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 28th April 2004, 02:41 PM   #11
Rocky is offline Rocky  Norway
diyAudio Member
 
Rocky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Kongsberg/Oslo
Default Re: Re: Wide range horn confusion..

Quote:
Originally posted by Ken L
I am biamping with a digital crossover to a pair of NHT1259 sealed subs.
I was thinking the same thing, that is if i can get horns to cover the area down to at least 150-200Hz.. I may build a tube based active LR, just for the phun of it.. or 1/2 tube.. using tubes for high pass and op-amps for low pass.. just one of many thoughts running through my head...

Quote:
It usually takes individuals _years_ of tweaking, trial and effort, trying and discarding various efforts to get a horn system how they want it.
For some reason, that doesn't scare me.. better to mill a new horn for my system than building yet another speaker, that I have nowhere to place..

Quote:
What you really want to do is ensure that you have plenty of fun on the Journey
I think my journey has just started. I'll get the midrange horns milled very soon, when I get them I will try to get a decent compression driver for them off ebay, and measure them to see if they can be mated directly to a Fostex bullet horn tweeter or something similar.. Or I might mill tweeter horns for a 1 inch compression thingy.. I'll find out when I get my first measurements.

It should be quite an interresting journey, and I would not be suprised if it takes years.. when the midhorns is successfully mated to a high-frequency partner, I'll look more into what options I have on the lower end, and the feasability of a midbass horn using some sort of cone driver.. perhaps a Fostex..?

You mention the use of the DX4 for your midbass , I suspect I will put my money elsewhere in the system , as the midbass range to be covered will only be from around 150Hz upto perhaps 500Hz-600Hz.. Any thoughts here will be appreciated although it's a long way to go before I make any midbass horns..

Quote:
It's all about the _magic_ And _magic_ is elusive, poorly defined, and oh so hard to achieve.
That is exactly what I am looking for... magic... With the 300B SET blocks, delivering something very special.. perhaps out of this world.. I want them to have a descent way of transmitting this *magic* to the human ear... I suspect horns can create some of this magic I am looking for..
  Reply With Quote
Old 28th April 2004, 05:25 PM   #12
diyAudio Member
 
slowmotion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Norge
Hi Rocky, all

Nice thread , this

Rocky, horns are addictive so watch out
Ken is right,
if you start fooling around with horns and triodes
chance are you will never be finished.
That's part of the charm , tho, isn't it

Here's some small tips on things I've learned through the years.
All very subjective, YMMV and all that.......

If you can, go active, preferebly with a digital crossover.
Yes, I know, digital is evil, but still.....

Use a horn that is big enough for the intended frequency range.
A 500Hz tractrix horn will probably only load to 650Hz or so.
IMHO it also usually helps a lot to put the horn in a baffle,
sounds much better, even if it doesn't look so good.

have to run

cheers
__________________
- Jan -
  Reply With Quote
Old 28th April 2004, 05:50 PM   #13
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Indiana
Default Horn system

Rocky,

Embarking on this pathway does have its drawbacks. The drivers are not cheap, the bandwidth is small, the horns large, and the bass units needed to keep up with horns are limited and expensive. You will need good crossovers and at least two, possibly three good amps, and the amount of gear and boxes takes up most of the house. So, consider this as a warning.
How's that for encouragement?

On the other hand, the realism and dynamics from a well done full horn system can be stunning - unmatched by any conventional direct radiator system that I have heard, and I have heard a lot. Much lower distortion and lots of headroom may account for it.

The 2" JBL 375 and later counterpart 2440/41 are a good mid drivers. I have the 2440, which is a very large and heavy driver that sounds very good on the right horn. Bandwidth is about 500 Hz to 8k Hz. The TAD 4001 is even more extended, with HF out to 16K perhaps, but very costly.

Get a good 107 - 109 dB super tweeter or 1" driver/horn to go with the JBL, and it's off to the races.

Once commited to a full blown 2" compression driver and horn system can lead to complications.
The main problem then becomes reproducing the midbass and bass portions of the spectrum properly. Even with dispersion issues managed at the crossover, conventional midbass boxes loaded with direct radiators sound different...less good. They can be made to work though, and most people choose this direct radiator midbass/bass path as the fastest way to get a system up and running.
TAD makes good stuff and their 12" midbass is no exception.
JBL's 2226 15" woofers are excellent drivers, and commonly used for just such a purpose.
But an 80 -100 Hz horn with a good driver will sound better, if properly done.

Just a few thoughts...

Tim
  Reply With Quote
Old 28th April 2004, 06:02 PM   #14
MBK is offline MBK  Singapore
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Singapore
Hi,

haven't dared to venture into horns (yet?), I'm on the dipole/open baffle side. I always thought dipole bass units should be a good match to horns. Why, because it's the only way to achieve a more directional bass with a direct radiator. It's not likely as directional as a horn, and it is on the opposite side of the efficiency/power requirement side, BUT it will have a dispersion closer to the matching upper register horns.

Just a thought.

(strangely I have never seen anybody trying this; commercial and DIY projects invariably use closed box woofers below the horn).
  Reply With Quote
Old 28th April 2004, 06:33 PM   #15
diyAudio Member
 
slowmotion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Norge
Default Re: Horn system

Quote:
Originally posted by Tim Moorman

TAD makes good stuff and their 12" midbass is no exception.
Tim
Hi Tim

I've been thinking about the TAD 1201,
do you have any direct experience with it ?

cheers
__________________
- Jan -
  Reply With Quote
Old 28th April 2004, 06:35 PM   #16
diyAudio Member
 
slowmotion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Norge
Quote:
Originally posted by MBK
Hi,

haven't dared to venture into horns (yet?), I'm on the dipole/open baffle side. I always thought dipole bass units should be a good match to horns. Why, because it's the only way to achieve a more directional bass with a direct radiator. It's not likely as directional as a horn, and it is on the opposite side of the efficiency/power requirement side, BUT it will have a dispersion closer to the matching upper register horns.

Just a thought.

Hi MBK

I've been using open baffle bass with horns for years now
works fine, I'll probably never go back to ordinary boxes.
You'll have to go active, tho

cheers
__________________
- Jan -
  Reply With Quote
Old 28th April 2004, 06:38 PM   #17
Rocky is offline Rocky  Norway
diyAudio Member
 
Rocky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Kongsberg/Oslo
Quote:
Originally posted by Tim Moorman
Rocky,
Embarking on this pathway does have its drawbacks. The drivers are not cheap, the bandwidth is small, the horns large, and the bass units needed to keep up with horns are limited and expensive. You will need good crossovers and at least two, possibly three good amps, and the amount of gear and boxes takes up most of the house. So, consider this as a warning.
How's that for encouragement?
Encouragement? not really.. However, I would like to approach this without filling the house with equipment. The ultimate setup for me would be 3-way horns from 150Hz and up, all powered by a single 300B monoblock per side.. Then actively cross it down to a dedicated subwoofer with built-in amplifying such as a gainclone..

To get away with smaller midbass horn, I would probably go for a corner placement, creating a rack supporting the 3 horns.. This will ofcourse take up more space than most conventional speakers, but I would like my setup not to be too dominating..

By getting the horns milled from wood, I guess I could also keep an esthetic appereance (my personal taste ofcourse), even with a 60-70cm diameter midbass horn. If i impregnate the horns with clear laquer with the wooden colours shining throuh, putting some green plants around the setup and lighting it up with a spotlight, I can even imagine a suitable WAF

BTW it would be one heck of a job to get a 70 cm diameter horn milled... I wonder if anyone in NORWAY has a lathe that is big enough and powerful enough for such a task....

______________

edit: drikk ølet ditt før det blir varmt...
  Reply With Quote
Old 28th April 2004, 06:53 PM   #18
Ken L is offline Ken L  United States
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: deep south
Default Re: Re: Re: Wide range horn confusion..

Quote:
You mention the use of the DX4 for your midbass
I would call that the lower mid range - and much of the fundamentals of the human voice occur beneath 1500hz - a cone seems very natural and smooth through that range to me - I am attempting to keep crossover point as high as I can within the horn loading range of the Azuras while shifting to the DDS and compression driver at the top of that range - I'm actually crossing at 134 hz right now - so 1250 puts me under a decade with a little leeway both directions

Quote:
Originally posted by Rocky

as the midbass range to be covered will only be from around 150Hz upto perhaps 500Hz-600Hz.. Any thoughts here will be appreciated ..........
This is where you need to spend the most thought and be very careful of your design.

I have no answers for you here - but Tim is correct

Quote:
Originally posted by Tim Moorman


3 octaves is a lot on a horn, but possible. A decade is even better, and nearing the optimum. Beyond a decade one wonders if the horn is serving any useful purpose in directivity.

Tim
If crossing at 150 3 octaves is 1200 and a decade 1500 - What I am saying use the full range or much of it or you have another horn, another crossover, another driver to match -

I do suggest that you select the drivers and horn combinations that will cover the range of approx 150hz to 3k as a pair and how they will work together with each other, crossover points, level matching, crossover slopes types, etc.

This will be the heart of the system - and _must_ be right.

You must consider, dispersion characteristics (particularly where crossover slopes overlap), sensitivity, chararacteristics of those slopes, lobing, phasing issues, alignment for phase and/or timing, etc. , not to mention whether you want to go with cone drivers ala Oris/Azura or crossover around 500 with a compression driver

The Oris/Azura are relatively new concepts, we're still learning to maximize them - you lose the benefit of resolution of the compression driver 500 hz up and yet gain point source coherence above that - I am embarking on an attempt to add the 1" waveguide - I am unaware of that having been achieved successfully or even having been tried previously. which is why I have been learning a lot about this _grin_

Tim has pointed out the largest problem and compromize area of 2" compression drivers where it is difficult to do the 500hz down part

Quote:
Originally posted by Rocky
I suspect horns can create some of this magic I am looking for..
I and lot of other people think so also. _big grin_

Tim has fooled around with a good bit more of this than I have - read his comments carefully, he knows a good bit about horns.

Actually, there are a number of posters here that do.

regards

Ken L
__________________
No longer powered by Linux - not enough apps and cross platform integration - but maybe one day
  Reply With Quote
Old 28th April 2004, 07:07 PM   #19
Rocky is offline Rocky  Norway
diyAudio Member
 
Rocky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Kongsberg/Oslo
Default Re: Re: Re: Re: Wide range horn confusion..

Quote:
Originally posted by Ken L

I do suggest that you select the drivers and horn combinations that will cover the range of approx 150hz to 3k as a pair and how they will work together with each other, crossover points, level matching, crossover slopes types, etc.
Quote:
Ken L also says:
Tim has pointed out the largest problem and compromize area of 2" compression drivers where it is difficult to do the 500hz down part
Ok, Tim. I would be grateful to hear your experienced opinion of the best companion below a 2 inch compression driver most likely being a JBL. I must set the limit of 150Hz where no horns are allowed below.. XO point preferrably between 500Hz and 600Hz

Quote:
Originally posted by Tim

But an 80 -100 Hz horn with a good driver will sound better, if properly done.
What sort of driver/arrangement have you used in such a horn setup and with what results?
  Reply With Quote
Old 28th April 2004, 08:02 PM   #20
Rocky is offline Rocky  Norway
diyAudio Member
 
Rocky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Kongsberg/Oslo
How would the JBL 2206H 12" LF DRIVER be suited first as a closed box speaker, then, later on, as a horn loaded midbass covering 100-600Hz...?
  Reply With Quote

Reply


Hide this!Advertise here!
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Wide dispersion speakers using full (wide) range drivers ozziozzi Full Range 1 28th December 2008 07:13 AM


New To Site? Need Help?

All times are GMT. The time now is 05:00 PM.


vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2014 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright ©1999-2014 diyAudio

Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.3.2