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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

Crossover advice
Crossover advice
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Old 9th August 2018, 02:40 PM   #31
kimmosto is offline kimmosto  Finland
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wintermute View Post
The one thing that I go elsewhere for (speaker workshop) is putting multiple curves onto one graph so that I can compare them.
Overlays of Calculator tool enables that too (with Scale, Delay, Invert -function which does nothing by default).

Last edited by kimmosto; 9th August 2018 at 02:42 PM.
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Old 10th August 2018, 03:11 AM   #32
wintermute is offline wintermute  Australia
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Crossover advice
OK thanks I'll have to check that out

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Old 10th August 2018, 04:56 AM   #33
kimmosto is offline kimmosto  Finland
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^Plotting of selected curve in response list A requires clicking of 'Scale, Delay, Invert' radio button and then overlay + button i.e. this is not the fastest tool for comparing multiple responses. Fortunately Calculator is not needed for this while designing speaker because charts in the main program have adequate (1) overlay for reference scenario. That does not encourage focusing excessively to some detail e.g. axial response.
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Old 10th August 2018, 02:01 PM   #34
system7 is offline system7  United Kingdom
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I feel like I have let you down here, hubi. Usually, when a thread turns personal, I just get out. But you don't seem to be getting much help here.

Let's have a review and see if we can altogether skip any need for complex softwares and microphones.

Click the image to open in full size.

5" plus 1" tweeter. The easiest speaker in the repertoire. Why? No real time-alignment problems. Plenty of overlap between the drivers. Good dispersion from the 5" midbass. A 5" doesn't hit breakup until above 6kHz. Don't worry about any exotic theory about MTM lobing and combing, it works pretty well anyway.

Firstly I suggested looking at a similar project by expert Troels Gravesen, who has built more speakers than most people have had hot dinners. We do not need to reinvent the wheel here:

Vifa PL14WJ-

All I see needs doing to his crossover is adjust the tweeter section to a 6 ohm tweeter. The woofers are very similar to yours, so need no attention. 1mH and 12uF it is for the bass section.

A simple idea with speakers is that once the bass section is fixed, the tweeter section just follows directly. Simple function of a complex variable:

Click the image to open in full size.

So with electrical 12dB/octave at 3kHz on the bass, we just want the same on the 6 ohm tweeter. I've done that before. I've skipped some little extras which, IMO, help the smooth sound, like attenuators and Zobels after the tweeter filter. To keep it simple. All you do is adjust tweeter level to taste. It ends up quite well phase aligned. Below.

Second below is Troels' MTM speaker. Offset tweeter because the diffraction problems can be awkward, but, TBH, you get what you get and it all averages out anyway. Troels, like me, tends to higher 3kHz crossover. Maybe that is a matter of taste, maybe we think tweeters sound better at higher crossover.

So what was hard about that?
Attached Images
File Type: png Hubi MTM crossover.PNG (7.2 KB, 58 views)
File Type: jpg Vifa PL14WJ D'Appolito MTM.JPG (28.0 KB, 57 views)
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Old 10th August 2018, 03:10 PM   #35
kimmosto is offline kimmosto  Finland
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Originally Posted by system7 View Post
But you don't seem to be getting much help here.
Is that so. I've published proper simulation with all available data without peeking design or ideas from anybody. You came as a savior with close to same connection and component values. It's not really difficult for us to clone & modify some known design or make everything from zero with inadequate/inaccurate data. But that does not meet my tolerances, and therefore I cannot honestly recommend it for anybody.
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Old 11th August 2018, 08:23 AM   #36
system7 is offline system7  United Kingdom
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I find nothing wrong with looking at what other people have found works well. Mostly public domain. Even Newton said that if he saw further than most, it was only because he stood on the shoulders of giants. In his case, Copernicus and Galileo I suppose.

What you have done with your bass filter is actually pretty much what Lynn Olson did in the Ariel II MTM with those tidy old 5" Vifa P13WH polycones.

Lynn tuned the Ariel by ear with pink noise to arrive at the near Zobel on the bass, and 6dB electrical I suppose. I don't find his second order tweeter models particularly well, but Lynn likes even order filters as sounding musical. So who knows?

Seems like these Eton drivers are rather good and flat. Much easier than, say, the SEAS ER15RLY. Certainly worth a go.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg ArielII_bass_crossover_Lynn_Olson.JPG (25.3 KB, 37 views)
File Type: jpg ArielII_tweeter_crossover_Lynn_Olson.JPG (22.9 KB, 19 views)
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Old 11th August 2018, 10:31 AM   #37
kimmosto is offline kimmosto  Finland
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Some sanity check might be valuable even for experienced gurus, but my policy and target has been for years that almost anybody could produce reference designs with good methods and tools (such as ARTA, calibrated single channel meas. gear, VituixCAD and recommended design method), knowledge about acoustics and electric circuits and experience with correlation of sound and measurements/simulations. After few projects we have possibilities to evaluate why Olson or Gravesen finally ended up to certain crossover topology and values. Good tools and methods (much better than yesterday's gurus ever had) also means that we don't have to refer or clone designs from the others. Just do what ever we're interested in. But this may take some time due to conservatism, getting stuck in old-fashioned and limited methods and tools.
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