Anyone know of a design/kit that uses the Scanspeak 18w/8531G00 is a 3 way floor stander.
I am thinking of something like the Speaker Design Works Invictus but with the addition of a 4” mid/full range. So, taking that further -
Speaker Design Works
Approx 60l MLTL with an F3 below 30hz.
Tallish narrow design, Invictus is 106x21.5x39.5 but would prefer something a bit squarer in cross section, say 25x34cm (keeping the volume the same)
Front port either round or slot.
Again taking the Invictus, moving the woofer down and adding the mid in an approx 1l closed section.
The Invictus tweeter is difficult to find in the U.K. so was thinking of -
18w/8531 plus TB w4-1337 plus D2905/93000.
Did a quick model and they seemed to work ok together.
So any thoughts on this configuration?
I am thinking of something like the Speaker Design Works Invictus but with the addition of a 4” mid/full range. So, taking that further -
Speaker Design Works
Approx 60l MLTL with an F3 below 30hz.
Tallish narrow design, Invictus is 106x21.5x39.5 but would prefer something a bit squarer in cross section, say 25x34cm (keeping the volume the same)
Front port either round or slot.
Again taking the Invictus, moving the woofer down and adding the mid in an approx 1l closed section.
The Invictus tweeter is difficult to find in the U.K. so was thinking of -
18w/8531 plus TB w4-1337 plus D2905/93000.
Did a quick model and they seemed to work ok together.
So any thoughts on this configuration?
Thanks @andy19191 for the comment.
Reviews seem to point to this being one of the best 6.5” to 7” drivers that can also dig fairly deep without going up to an 8” but also be well behaved fairly high.
I would probably plan to cross over at 350-45hz so true subs are probably not going to do it.
Do you have another suggestion for a more cost effective driver that can get down below 30hz f3 in a vented floor standers at 6.5-7” and give a punchy bass?
Do the mid/tweeter look ok?
I am open to suggestions as I am feeling my way into this.
Reviews seem to point to this being one of the best 6.5” to 7” drivers that can also dig fairly deep without going up to an 8” but also be well behaved fairly high.
I would probably plan to cross over at 350-45hz so true subs are probably not going to do it.
Do you have another suggestion for a more cost effective driver that can get down below 30hz f3 in a vented floor standers at 6.5-7” and give a punchy bass?
Do the mid/tweeter look ok?
I am open to suggestions as I am feeling my way into this.
1" + 5" + 8" is a popular small-room driver combination. With a BW3 woofer crossover circuit, the low inductance motor on the 8" SB_Acoustics SB23NRXS45-8 woofer in 2-2.5cuft ported volume produces excellent -F3=30Hz bass without interference with the 5" midrange.
The designers at AudioExcite have a partnership with Hulgich Audio, and their Ella Mk.II Speakers which use 1" + 5" + 8" drivers from SB_Acoustics has been winning awards
Soundstage Australia – Hulgich Audio Ella Mk.II Speakers
www.audioexcite.com >> News
---------
Also:
Astasia Project - 3 ways loudspeakers
Astasia Prject - 3 ways loudspeakers
The designers at AudioExcite have a partnership with Hulgich Audio, and their Ella Mk.II Speakers which use 1" + 5" + 8" drivers from SB_Acoustics has been winning awards
Soundstage Australia – Hulgich Audio Ella Mk.II Speakers
www.audioexcite.com >> News
---------
Also:
Astasia Project - 3 ways loudspeakers
Astasia Prject - 3 ways loudspeakers
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A 6.5" + 1" 2 way is a budget configuration that asks too much of the midwoofer which is too small to perform bass duties well (distorts due to insufficient SPL) and too large to handle the upper midrange well (cone too big and resonates). It is also common to cross the tweeter too low (distorts due to insufficient SPL). It is however an excellent configuration for modestly small priced speakers. Because the drivers are being asked to do too much expensive exotic drivers are likely to bring audible benefits.
A 2 x 8" + 5" + 1" 3 is perhaps the standard high fidelity 3 way combination where things are nicely balanced. Note the 5" needs to be an efficient midrange driver for things to drop nicely into place and not the currently more common small midwoofer.
Now I think you are saying that 8" woofers are too big? And you want 30 Hz performance? And sound quality is relevant (which requires room boom removal => distributed subs and more cone area!).
One 6.5" driver will struggle with deep bass, two would be a significant improvement but four would be needed to match the area of 2 x 8" but then the stroke will be shorter and so not quite.
Decent 2 x 6.5" standard range drivers will outperform every 1 x 6.5" exotic range driver as a woofer in a 3 way. Since you are opting for a floor standing speaker this is not a problem. Unfortunately 6.5" is a bit small for a woofer and the perfect size for a midwoofer and so there are almost no off the shelf drivers with parameters optimised for woofer duty. Standard woofers tend to be 8" and above in size.
I would suggest settling on a configuration first before looking closely at driver details. 2 x 6.5" + 4" + 1" in a small tower might be what you are after? but you may have to accept the laws of physics when it comes to low frequency output.
Many thanks for all of the comments, they are much appreciated.
Having read them through and thanks to Andy19191 for summing up my dilemma having been round in circles with >
Mini Statements (2x6.5 + 4 +1) - MiniStatements
Visaton B80 - 8 + 3.2 dome + 1 - http://www.lautsprechershop.de/hifi/vision_b80.htm
4-5" Full range open baffle plus 15" H frame woofer
PMC OB1 TL clone
Various full range and 6.5+1 MLTLs
and now potentially back to what looks like the mini statement.
Hmmmmm - so seems that the more traditional Mini Statement may be the way to go but potentially with a couple of tweaks - using the drain pipe mid tube from the Anthology/Finalist and potentially a front slot port.
Probably ought to have said that the vast majority of my music falls into a fairly narrow genre - Prog Rock/Prog Metal/Djent/Tech Metal/Scandinavian doom but with a bit of traditional and new metal thrown in. (bands such as Spocks Beard, Opeth, Gojira, Haken, Animals as leaders, Tesseract, Soen with a bit of Machinehead, Slipknot, Lamb of God etc. thrown in etc.).
So, contrary to popular belief I am not after quantity of bass but bass that is tight, fast, dynamic and will go pretty low as it has to keep up with the double kick drums and synchronised bass guitar often used on this type of music. However, I do value a clear mid for vocals and guitar and want a top end that is not harsh (can't stand a splashy cymbal) so looking for a frequency profile that has the popular downward slope from Bass to treble of around 2-3db and a fairly flat profile. It is easy to think that for Metal you just need loads of bass but in my experience that is the last thing you want as it will just become an unholy mess, I want to hear the distinct instruments and the distinction between bass drum and bass guitar etc.
As a reference I used to have a pair of Kef 104/2 being fed by quad 44/405-2 amps that I regret selling on but that sound was very enjoyable.
So, I think I know what I want I just need a bit of guidance as to what format/layout/drivers may be best to achieve it. Many thanks again and if there are any more ideas then I would be very happy to hear them.
Having read them through and thanks to Andy19191 for summing up my dilemma having been round in circles with >
Mini Statements (2x6.5 + 4 +1) - MiniStatements
Visaton B80 - 8 + 3.2 dome + 1 - http://www.lautsprechershop.de/hifi/vision_b80.htm
4-5" Full range open baffle plus 15" H frame woofer
PMC OB1 TL clone
Various full range and 6.5+1 MLTLs
and now potentially back to what looks like the mini statement.
Hmmmmm - so seems that the more traditional Mini Statement may be the way to go but potentially with a couple of tweaks - using the drain pipe mid tube from the Anthology/Finalist and potentially a front slot port.
Probably ought to have said that the vast majority of my music falls into a fairly narrow genre - Prog Rock/Prog Metal/Djent/Tech Metal/Scandinavian doom but with a bit of traditional and new metal thrown in. (bands such as Spocks Beard, Opeth, Gojira, Haken, Animals as leaders, Tesseract, Soen with a bit of Machinehead, Slipknot, Lamb of God etc. thrown in etc.).
So, contrary to popular belief I am not after quantity of bass but bass that is tight, fast, dynamic and will go pretty low as it has to keep up with the double kick drums and synchronised bass guitar often used on this type of music. However, I do value a clear mid for vocals and guitar and want a top end that is not harsh (can't stand a splashy cymbal) so looking for a frequency profile that has the popular downward slope from Bass to treble of around 2-3db and a fairly flat profile. It is easy to think that for Metal you just need loads of bass but in my experience that is the last thing you want as it will just become an unholy mess, I want to hear the distinct instruments and the distinction between bass drum and bass guitar etc.
As a reference I used to have a pair of Kef 104/2 being fed by quad 44/405-2 amps that I regret selling on but that sound was very enjoyable.
So, I think I know what I want I just need a bit of guidance as to what format/layout/drivers may be best to achieve it. Many thanks again and if there are any more ideas then I would be very happy to hear them.
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This speaker is not traditional in that it uses a ribbon tweeter (a characteristic sound you may or may not like) and sprays the output from the rear of the midrange over the front wall rather than absorbing it in a conventional manner. I have some doubts about the wisdom of doing this but it is likely to have pros as well as cons compared to a conventional speaker. Having a go at this sort of thing is an important part of DIY for many and is good to see folk doing it but it is unconventional.
The quality of bass heard in the home generally has little do with speakers beyond their being able to produce sufficient SPL with lowish distortion (follows largely from the size of the woofer/s) but the acoustics of the room, where the speakers and listener are located and the electronic and mechanical room treatment.
These had 2 x 8" woofers and an anechoic -3dB bass extension around 50 Hz (what they would do in a room is quite different). You were looking at 1 x 6.5" and 30 Hz extension. KEF recommended using subs for the lowest frequencies.
This might be one to add to your list.
You have received very good advice so far IMHO.
I did have some thoughts.
If you are more concerned with good, tight base than volume, I would conceder sealed woofers. Sealed have the lowest group delay, and protect the woofer below resonance.
Also try for a Qts of close to 5. to maximize transient response.
Distortion in dynamic drivers is proportional to excursion. More area will lower the distortion, all else equal. My first thought was a 10" driver like they used in the Dynaco A25.
Perceived base is based on F10, so an F3 of about 60 Hz sounds reasonable in view that sealed roll off at 6 db per octave. Room gain may or may not assist.
Good luck with your project.
HTH
I did have some thoughts.
If you are more concerned with good, tight base than volume, I would conceder sealed woofers. Sealed have the lowest group delay, and protect the woofer below resonance.
Also try for a Qts of close to 5. to maximize transient response.
Distortion in dynamic drivers is proportional to excursion. More area will lower the distortion, all else equal. My first thought was a 10" driver like they used in the Dynaco A25.
Perceived base is based on F10, so an F3 of about 60 Hz sounds reasonable in view that sealed roll off at 6 db per octave. Room gain may or may not assist.
Good luck with your project.
HTH
Do you know of any published projects along those lines, possibly with a beryllium tweeters instead? Beautiful looking setup btw.
If I could stretch to an 8” driver how would the Visaton Tiw200xs fair (I know it is not cheap but fits your requirements I think ) - Qts=0,46, Vas=51l, fs=31hz. TIW 200 XS - 8 Ohm | Visaton
Looks interesting in this one - Hobby Hifi Visaton B80 - Speaker KIT without Cabinet High End buy at hifisound.de
Or the similarly priced Dayton RSS210.
However it looks like these are both classed as subwoofers rather than woofers, is that an issue?
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There is this place that sells these cheaply enough. VAT included.
Tieftoner VISATON TIW 200 XS, 180 W | Pollin.de
Tieftoner VISATON TIW 200 XS, 180 W | Pollin.de
I completed a CAD-only Avalon cabinet style design using three Satori Drivers 9" + 5.5" + 1" you can view in post #29 of this thread.
Kairos 3-way cabinet
I am looking at buying a kit in either two forms (both ported)
First: 2 x 7.5" Satori woofer, 1 x 5" Satori Mid and Scanspeak Illuminator D3004/6040-10 Beryllium tweeter
Second: 1 x 8" Satori woofer, 5" Satori mid, and Scanspeak Illuminator D3004/6040-10 Beryllium tweeter
There is a third option although quite a bit more money
Third: 2 x 7" Illuminator woofer, 1 x 6" Morel carbon fiber- Rohacell midrange and Scanspeak Illuminator D3004/6040-10 Beryllium tweeter.
I would greatly appreciate your thoughts and any recommendations.
Yes there is an issue for passive crossovers. The low frequencies radiate equally in all directions whereas the midrange and above tend to beam forward. This means the woofer/s should be about 6dB more sensitive than the midrange to be equally loud on axis. Perhaps a touch less in practise due to boundary reinforcement.
A good midrange (not midwoofer) is around 90 dB sensitivity. A small woofer tends to be around this sensitivity whereas a subwoofer will tend to sacrifice some efficiency to get more low frequency extension compared to a woofer. Using two woofers provides the +6dB gain and gives a speaker around 90 dB sensitivity. Using a single small woofer or worse a single small subwoofer will require the midrange (and tweeter) to be padded down 6 dB or more resulting in an inefficient speaker that is likely to struggle a bit to provide loud and clean in the woofer frequency range where music has much of its energy. Things are bit more nuanced in the crossover region but this is the gist of why high fidelity speakers have so much cone area for the low frequencies.
After too much time searching and going in circles I came back to this thread that I started a while ago. Having nearly disappeared up my own whatsit with amp and speaker ideas I think I have finally got a set of requirements and a possible solution. Any thoughts on the following would be very welcome.
Requirements
http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/BOX-PORT-CALC.htm
I had a play with the DbDynamics Slot port calculator and came up with the following -
Slim tall floor stander - 9" x 11.5" x 42" with a 1" full depth slot at the bottom of the box. The port tuned to 31.5hz and a volume of 38l.
This tallies well with other sims on the web and also the output of the Scanspeak spreadsheet tool.
For the mid I had been looking into the SB Satori range that seems to get good reviews, the WO24P-8 was a bass candidate but needs a 60-70l box which is too big. The MR13P-4 seemed to be the best candidate for the mids (with a back up of the TB W4-1337SD as per the Statement Monitor) giving good extension to over 3.5k, lower beaming and the least amount of 1-2khz bumpiness seen in other Satori MW/MR's. I would put this in a Finalist style 5" tube which I can experiment with closed, vented or open back.
As for the tweeter I have three candidates - SB 29RDC ring soft dome, SB 26ADC Metal Dome and Fountek Neo CD3.0 Ribbon. My preference is for the Ribbon but I do not have a model for that so overlaying the data onto the 29RDC looks like they are very similar on axis so modeled with that data. The Ribbon has a similar on axis to the RDC but better off axis (horizontal) performance.
To drive that lot I will use the Hypex FA123 plate amps and the built in DSP for crossover and possible to take out any room issues. This will be in a separate section on the back of the main cabinet. https://www.hypex.nl/product/fusionamp-fa123/154
Finally putting all of that together in Boxsim using very simple 24db active crossovers and gain adjustments at 350hz and 3500hz seems to result in a very feasible speaker that should get better when the dsp is properly implemented and the frequency profile modified to taste. Total cost should be around £1500 all in (drivers, plate amps, wood (22mm mdf and 40mm worktop butchers block baffle) and paint/stain/lacquer).
Sorry for the long ramble bit if anyone has comments then they will be gratefully received.
Requirements
- Budget is reasonable but not excessive (bit vague but if I set a number then I would only have to double it). I would prefer quality over quantity though.
- Must work with my relatively small listening room 10' x 10' x 8' and work fairly close to the rear wall
- Sources are not a real challenge, most of the listening is either via CD (rarely) or Spotify premium through as Chrome Cast Audio and external DAC (Audio GD) and a passive Preamp.
- Must work with the majority of my listening - any music so long as it is Metal ! Specifically prog, tech, new, melodic doom and the odd bit of metalcore which means it must have a extended but punchy/dynamic bass to ensure there is definition to twin kick drums and bass guitar working together in fast/intricate rhythms. Mids must be clean and open and the trebles not to harsh due the amount of cymbal work.
- TG SP95 - SP95
- TG SP38/13 - SP38/13
- Speaker Design Works Invictus MLTL - Speaker Design Works
- I also got inspiration from the Statement Monitor and Finalist - Statements_Monitor and http://speakerdesignworks.com/Finalists_1.html
- Plus this guys seems to like them - http://www.xtremeplace.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=154994.0
http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/BOX-PORT-CALC.htm
I had a play with the DbDynamics Slot port calculator and came up with the following -
Slim tall floor stander - 9" x 11.5" x 42" with a 1" full depth slot at the bottom of the box. The port tuned to 31.5hz and a volume of 38l.
This tallies well with other sims on the web and also the output of the Scanspeak spreadsheet tool.
For the mid I had been looking into the SB Satori range that seems to get good reviews, the WO24P-8 was a bass candidate but needs a 60-70l box which is too big. The MR13P-4 seemed to be the best candidate for the mids (with a back up of the TB W4-1337SD as per the Statement Monitor) giving good extension to over 3.5k, lower beaming and the least amount of 1-2khz bumpiness seen in other Satori MW/MR's. I would put this in a Finalist style 5" tube which I can experiment with closed, vented or open back.
As for the tweeter I have three candidates - SB 29RDC ring soft dome, SB 26ADC Metal Dome and Fountek Neo CD3.0 Ribbon. My preference is for the Ribbon but I do not have a model for that so overlaying the data onto the 29RDC looks like they are very similar on axis so modeled with that data. The Ribbon has a similar on axis to the RDC but better off axis (horizontal) performance.
To drive that lot I will use the Hypex FA123 plate amps and the built in DSP for crossover and possible to take out any room issues. This will be in a separate section on the back of the main cabinet. https://www.hypex.nl/product/fusionamp-fa123/154
Finally putting all of that together in Boxsim using very simple 24db active crossovers and gain adjustments at 350hz and 3500hz seems to result in a very feasible speaker that should get better when the dsp is properly implemented and the frequency profile modified to taste. Total cost should be around £1500 all in (drivers, plate amps, wood (22mm mdf and 40mm worktop butchers block baffle) and paint/stain/lacquer).
Sorry for the long ramble bit if anyone has comments then they will be gratefully received.
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That lojzek for comnent. I did look at the scanspeak 3” dome - http://www.scan-speak.dk/datasheet/pdf/d7608-920010.pdf, I think this is used in the PMC OB1. The other one that looks interesting is the 3.3” cone Visaton B80 - B 80 - 8 Ohm | Visaton.
May be worth another look as the 18w8531 could go up to say 600hz crossover (it has been used in the other examples I gave in a 2 Way crossed at 2khz).
Do you have a small dome mid that you would recommend?
May be worth another look as the 18w8531 could go up to say 600hz crossover (it has been used in the other examples I gave in a 2 Way crossed at 2khz).
Do you have a small dome mid that you would recommend?
Dayton RSS210HF-4 will have an Fb/3/10 of 30/26/19Hz in a 1ft^3, and use 1.5# of fill to limit the ripple and flatten it out. 2.5"D x 10.5" long port. This is what I used in my Attitudes 3-ways, and I feel they do metal VERY well. I xover at 850Hz to a 2" dome mid, and then to a planar tweeter at 4.5k. I've been using these now for about 8 years, and shy of one design, I've not been able to better them. All around and for bass extension, they are my best.
Later,
Wolf
Later,
Wolf
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