Help for first time builder, what should my progression be?

[sushmit]

Hello Everyone,

I have been a lurker for the past couple of months and I am finally ready to take the plunge into making my own speakers. I use my audio primarily for watching movies with the family, and listening to classical music when I am alone. I currently own Ascent Acoustics Sierra-2 which I absolutely love. My long term goal (2-3 years) is to build a speaker of higher quality than my Sierra-2's.

I have not built speaker or, for that matter, anything before and will have to learn the woodworking, and the design/crossover aspects. I am a lot more confident in the design/crossover aspect as I am an engineer by training. Looking through various posts, the elsinore seem like appropriate end game speakers for me (open to ideas here) and I would like to work my way up to them.

I would ideally like to start by building something simple from a kit eg. OS , Speedsters (bookshelf) or Amiga (towers). After this, I would like to spend some time switching the drivers and playing with the crossovers until I have a good grasp of speaker design.

I was wondering if any fellow enthusiast has taken such a route, and what speakers would they recommend as a starter, and as an endgame. I am worried that OS are contained in very small boxes and wont allow me to "hack" them too much.

Thanks again to all the members of this wonderful forum.

 

[jwjarch]

Hi sushmit. Welcome to the forum! Although I’ve been interested in hifi for the better part of 20 years, I’m a relative noob to the diyaudio world as well. This forum is no joke and there is a neverending stream of knowledge here on every audio related thing you could ever imagine. But you probably know that already.

Most speaker builders will tell you to build a proven design first. I can say, that is great advice. The more I learn about drivers, crossovers, DSP, open baffle vs enclosures, etc., the more I realize my early designs were full of flaws. I decided that I would build a proven design before I built a large scale speaker. The first pair of real speakers I built were the Helium’s by Scott Sehlin. You can find the thread over on the parts express forum. If you think the OS are small you should take a look at these. They sound excellent by the way. So I think you are headed down the right path with your process. Pick something relatively cheap and small and proven to start out with. You’ll probably be happy to have those in your bedroom or desk at work. And then you can start to mess around with things on your next project. Also start to search out programs for speaker design like LSim and Unibox. Eventually you may work your way up to using Jeff Bagby’s XO design spreadsheet. These tools will at least give you a glimpse of how your designs might behave in real life without having to buy a ton of expensive components first. I am still trying to decide what my next major speaker project will be and I have NO idea what my endgame speakers will be at this point. I have too many more experiments before I figure out what sound is right for me; and that includes building amps and pre-amps now as well.

Sorry for all the rambling. It’s not easy to sum up my journey into this world. It just goes to show once you catch the diyaudio bug, it’s hard to stop.

 

[Borus]

I think that looking into something really different is a good way to reach an end game with all choices covered. Look up the "Frugel-Horn" from plant10 on the Full Range forum. I think they still have flat packs. Good way to start. With someone else doing the cutting, you can get your gluing and clamping down knowing the cuts are not the problem. Frugel-Horn Mk3
Also, paying attention to the work on baffle step compensation, where that concept will have a meaningful effect because of the single driver.

 

[sushmit]

Thanks for the sharing your experience and the suggestion for Heliums jwjarch. They certainly look like amazing speakers!
Borus, Frugel-Horn is new to me, thanks for suggesting them, do you have experience with them? If yes, what was your experience?

 

[DougL]

I took a different path. I bought an inexpensive 6 channel Class D amp, a DCX 2496 and a small verity of buy-out drivers.

I ended up with the Dayton 3/4" NEO dome, a 4" wide range (NSB) and a Buyout 12" Woofer and started experimenting.

I bought a MiniDSP 4*10 and am continuing my journey.

HTH

 

[sushmit]

Thanks DougL, I thought about going that path too, as it allows me to focus on the drivers and crossover design. However, I was wary of this approach as I didnt know how to extend it to a box design. Have you had any success in designing boxes after playing the drivers you have mentioned?

 

[system7]

No question a 3 way is the way to go for effortless loudness.

But MTM with a ribbon is a lovely solution too, with that PA-like projection that can overcome a poor room acoustic:

Thing is, you can series wire two basses and adjust the crossover (Doubling coils and resistors, and halving the capacitors in the bass section) of a regular MT design and you get louder and less distortion too. The box size doubles too.

Since your Ascent speakers seem to be a bit like the SEAS Curv, you can investigate the possibilities. SEAS CURV

All very educational, I hope you agree.

 

[DougL]

I was interested in OB.
For box speakers, I favor sealed boxes for the lower group delay.
Both ways are valid.
Each way can teach you something different.
Since IIR and passive filters interact with the box in the same way, that's not an either / or choice.

HTH

 

[astrojet]

Have you seen the foam core thread? Foam Core Board Speaker Enclosures?
XRK971 has an index in the first post. Given the effort, tools, waste etc. involved in wood box construction, this might be an efficient way to learn.

 

[Borus]

Sushmit you asked about mine and astorjet answered there is a Foam Core Don't call it a Frugel-Horn in the link above and here http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full...pired-foam-core-mini-build-3.html#post3339779

 

[LineSource]

The Buddy-System might help.

member "yoke" started a build thread which may match your goals:
"Need advice for 3 way RAAL+SB+SB"
-tweeter: Raal 140-15D (3kHZ passive crossover completed)
-mid bass: Satori 13MR-4 or 16MR-4
-bass/woofer: 9" Satori WO24P-6 or two 8" SB23NRX45-8
---some DSP to manage small room effects

Need advice for 3 way RAAL+SB+SB or peerless
==================

Some Wandering in the Audio Jungle is also necessary
-------
Study the promises of controlled directivity horns.
-Dr. Earl Geddes has information on his website.

 

[sushmit]

@system7 those speakers look beautiful! which ones are they?
@DougL; this idea really intrigues me, can you tell me how to go about using dsp to crossover drivers and how you connect it to your reciever?
Also, what is the difference between minidsp and minidsp_HD for you?
@astrojet and @Borus ; the foam core sounds amazing, If I go the mini_DSP route, foam core would probably be my next step. Thanks a bunch for this suggestion!
@BuddySystem ; Thanks for the recommendation, I am going through the thread right now

 

[sushmit]

My post seem to have been deleted, reposting so there might of two of these.

Thanks for the advice system7; what speakers are those? they look beautiful, I agree with your assesment and a 3 way speaker is something i hope to make in 1-2 years time

Astrojet and Borus; thank you so much for the links, this is a really cool idea and I will certainly look into this pre cabinet

LineSource; thanks for the link, the tweeter is very similar to my Sierra-2; this thread is agood resource for me

DougL ; very interesting idea, I am very intrigued and thinking of going in this direction. Could you guide me through the steps you take in designing and configuring your speakers? Can I use my current reciever as a amp for the dsp?
Also, what is the difference between minidsp and minidsp HD; is twice the cost worth it?
Finally, do you know of a way to convert the minidsp settings to a passive crossover.

Thanks everyone again for the wonderful tips

 

[gabdx]

Hi Sushmit,

I listen to classical music and I like my speakers to be able to play any kind of musical taste with great sound.

I like 'hifi' sound except that I find all the speakers lack emotions.

The hardest thing about speaker building is to limit your expectations on frequency response and to control the peaks and dips which are audible while maintaining transparency.

This is my path:
1. old paper drivers
2. built OB with 12 inches alnico and 8 inches saba and 4 inches tweeters, 2n order.
3. Built 2x OB bass panel 10' high by 5' (approx.) , the only thing which gave me a real piano low registers accurately, no sub can do it.
4. Rebuilt the OB with spruce boards which really helped the sound.
5. Used smaller OB full ranges in semi-open rectangular boxes, gave me the most emotional sound with a very poor hifi!!!
6. Currently used usher diy which is a little modified but this is very good at some aspects.
7. Next step is maybe an active XO for the bass and the rest of the XO passive with 2 amplifiers.
8. One of the goal is to get rid of sub and build another semi-OB with 12 inches bass drivers.

My major problems are space constraints, acoustic treatments of the room, measurement decisions, and XO parts costs!

 

[sushmit]

Very interesting journey and thought provoking points grbdx; specially number 5; bad hifi but most emotional (and satisfying?) sound.

I am learning more about acoustic treatments and room simulations to identify standing waves and how to treat them. Hopefully I get a good hang of it soon.

Cheers!

 

[gabdx]

Yes it is. I learned that each part remove emotions from a system.

Take a violin and give it to an audiophile for hifi treatments: they will coat it with damping materials, gummy lacquers, build special internal additional bracings, reduce sensitivity, augment bass and extension, place a special bamboo banana hairs for the bow etc.

It will then sound more balanced and open, extended, but all emotions will be killed!

Same thing applies to audio. more sensitivity of the drivers, more emotions and crazy wild sound

More controlled and less sensitive drivers = sound sterile.

If you take the nature as an example, most sounds are made with the least effort of power and the greatest purity, speed.

No drivers can even reproduce with credibility a fork hitting a ceramic plate or crystal glass. It is crazy when you think about it!

 

[sushmit]

Thanks for your perspective gabdx, I have heard an interpretation of your thesis. I understand that having natural reflections and resonance improves your listening experience. However, I would still want my speaker to be linear, while work on my room or use an eq to give me the emotional impact. I was wondering whether you have experienced that during your quest for emotional sound.

Yes it is. I learned that each part remove emotions from a system.

Take a violin and give it to an audiophile for hifi treatments: they will coat it with damping materials, gummy lacquers, build special internal additional bracings, reduce sensitivity, augment bass and extension, place a special bamboo banana hairs for the bow etc.

It will then sound more balanced and open, extended, but all emotions will be killed!

Same thing applies to audio. more sensitivity of the drivers, more emotions and crazy wild sound

More controlled and less sensitive drivers = sound sterile.

If you take the nature as an example, most sounds are made with the least effort of power and the greatest purity, speed.

No drivers can even reproduce with credibility a fork hitting a ceramic plate or crystal glass. It is crazy when you think about it!

 

[gabdx]

Using EQ and XO are especially what removes that emotion. Same thing with the amplifiers, SET are unmatched, then low feedback push pull tubes, but far from emotional.

I think I know what you mean by natural reflections, but, I believe you hear them more on a boxed design. Drivers are generating an equal signal strength in both the rear and the front, restriction to air flow and cone shape reduce the efficiency by a lot for the rear signal however it is still this signal which is projected in your speaker box and then pollutes your sound. If you put the driver in a semi-open baffle or OB this sound will not affect the driver but you will hear a second sound coming from the back wall etc. This is not so bad and there are techniques to deal with this = a back wall covered with the best acoustic material possible, a few db is enough to clean the sound reflexions from the middle frequencies.

For the bass, the driver needs to be in a big tall panel which can be screwed to book shelves as the back panel and placed in a triangle with the room corners with 10' ceilings. this creates a sort of transmission line, a semi-closed box with big volume and a lot of absorption from the books and the bookshelf, the whole thing can weight hundreds of pounds.

Even this system was very good, the high sensitivity drivers were not very controlled and it is a 3 way.

You can have a linear system in an semi-OB and only one driver, but you have to be realistic about the bandwidth like 80 - 8000 hz.

In diy you are the master of the sound you want, there are no barriers and no frontiers.

A flat frequency is only the beginning of a XO design and not the final goal for home use. you need a response to suit your taste.

Personally my experience in speakers is limited, take it with a grain of salt.
I stay away from ribbons, wave guides, horns, DSPs, most reflex ports, Transmission lines, narrow speakers, coaxial, aluminum, MDF.

 

[sushmit]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts gabdx, my feeling differ from yours regarding hi-fi and I am excited to experiment and see what I actually like. Thanks again for your comments and suggestion

Using EQ and XO are especially what removes that emotion. Same thing with the amplifiers, SET are unmatched, then low feedback push pull tubes, but far from emotional.

I think I know what you mean by natural reflections, but, I believe you hear them more on a boxed design. Drivers are generating an equal signal strength in both the rear and the front, restriction to air flow and cone shape reduce the efficiency by a lot for the rear signal however it is still this signal which is projected in your speaker box and then pollutes your sound. If you put the driver in a semi-open baffle or OB this sound will not affect the driver but you will hear a second sound coming from the back wall etc. This is not so bad and there are techniques to deal with this = a back wall covered with the best acoustic material possible, a few db is enough to clean the sound reflexions from the middle frequencies.

For the bass, the driver needs to be in a big tall panel which can be screwed to book shelves as the back panel and placed in a triangle with the room corners with 10' ceilings. this creates a sort of transmission line, a semi-closed box with big volume and a lot of absorption from the books and the bookshelf, the whole thing can weight hundreds of pounds.

Even this system was very good, the high sensitivity drivers were not very controlled and it is a 3 way.

You can have a linear system in an semi-OB and only one driver, but you have to be realistic about the bandwidth like 80 - 8000 hz.

In diy you are the master of the sound you want, there are no barriers and no frontiers.

A flat frequency is only the beginning of a XO design and not the final goal for home use. you need a response to suit your taste.

Personally my experience in speakers is limited, take it with a grain of salt.
I stay away from ribbons, wave guides, horns, DSPs, most reflex ports, Transmission lines, narrow speakers, coaxial, aluminum, MDF.

 

[Borus]

I'll say two things here. 1. Emotion can mean Sole when building guitars a great manufacture can have guitars that are extremely actuate, as in, all the notes can ring nicely but unless someone has put the time in to adjust and modify to suit the wood it will not have been inbued with sole. Martin a great company but unless something goes wrong on the line a martin can be shipped with no one giving it any love. Strangely if a problem occurs on the line an individual craftsman will inherit that instrument and insure it meets spec. Many times that guitar will be something special. So a hand built guitar can have something that is difficult to explain it just sounds better. I understand that this goes against the measures here but ask a musician. OK this is going to get way to complex for a single post. I'll do my second thought later