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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

Need advice for 3 way RAAL+SB+SB or peerless
Need advice for 3 way RAAL+SB+SB or peerless
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Old 15th July 2018, 11:17 AM   #1
yoke is offline yoke  Croatia
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Default Need advice for 3 way RAAL+SB+SB or peerless

Sorry but this is, but it one more tread about what to do when boredom hits

I used to have RAAL 140-15D and satori 16P which I have sold, but now thinking to give it another try, but in 3way setup.
( I have sold Raal and Satori as I needed money for some other project, so never have realy time to play with it as I would like to...)

So the plan is to build something that goes from 20Hz to 20kHz (oldo, now days, I can hear only up to 16kHz )
or something like that
The design would look like Ascendo System Z loudspeakers

Tweeter: Raal 140-15D
mid bass: Satori 13P or 16P
bass/sub woofer: SB29NRX75-6, or peerless XLS10, or peerless XXLS12 (peerless, bacause I have them)

as I understand SB29NRX75-6 was used in combination with Satori 16P in Jeff Bagby and Treols design with good results
so I'm thinking to go sime way

SBAcoustics 10

Jeff Bagby - The Kairos and Continuum Three-Way Loudspeakers
Box

5" SATORI MW13P-8 :: SB Acoustics
61/2" SATORI MW16P-8 :: SB Acoustics
10" SB29NRX75-6 :: SB Acoustics

or instead of SB29 to use Peerless XLS10 P830452 (which I have from BKelectronic http://www.bkelec.com/HiFi/Drive_Uni...less/XLS10.htm )

https://www.tymphany.com/wp-content/...LS-P830452.pdf
Application note for PeerlessXLS 10" subwoofer drive units
http://www.d-s-t.com.au/data/Peerles..._Subwoofer.pdf

or Peerless XXLS12 P830845
https://www.tymphany.com/wp-content/...LS-P830845.pdf

I have two of those XLS10 (which I was plan to use for HT sub in like 25L with linkwitz transform via DSP)
and one XXLS12 (which I use for HT sub in 65L closed)

The plan is to build cabinet as big as 15-20L for midbas and up to 60-65L for bass/sub

People recommend to cross Raal 140-15D at 3kHz, so would it be better to use Satori 13P or 16P in combination with it ?

Should I use SB29 or XLS10 or XXLS12 for lower end ?
Maybe rather XXLS12 closed in 50-65L with LR via DSP ? then SB12 in bass reflex ?

Source is rPi or PC
DSP is the one with es9028pro http://analog-precision.com/UPXO.html
amplifiers from hypex nc252+nc100hf (2x250w+100w) but I can always add some extra power for lower end of needed)

any advices is appreciated

or maybe some other drivers to think about, sbacoustics Satori WO24P-4

thanks
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Old 16th July 2018, 03:23 AM   #2
LineSource is offline LineSource  United States
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Review the large radius edge rounds used by Vapor Audio as an attractive low diffraction cabinet style. The Satori MR13P uses a shorter coil than the MW13P, which allows the MR13P to produce a smoother 3kHz+ response. The Vapor cabinets use a tapered rear volume to remove upper midrange frequency resonances. The 9" Satori WO24P woofer does not show cone breakup until 2.5kHz. The WO24P in a cleverly designed sealed cabinet can produce clean transients, plus handle the power required for active bass equalization.
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Old 16th July 2018, 04:49 AM   #3
ScottG is offline ScottG  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yoke View Post
The design would look like Ascendo System Z loudspeakers.


..or maybe some other drivers to think about..
I've got an Ascendo-aesthetic idea rolling-around (based on a similar older design of mine that's no longer).

-the Peerless subs would work well with the idea, but ironically - the other driver's you are thinking about would not.

The most particular point about the idea is that the midrange is radial (as in "upward firing" - toward the tweeter, inset to the lower cabinet's top panel). And I know of a driver that should work well in this capacity.
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Old 16th July 2018, 06:50 PM   #4
LineSource is offline LineSource  United States
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Edge bevels are easier to cut than machining edge rounds

A side woofer must meet the quarter wavelength goal to maintain the illusion of a point source.

200Hz crossover = 68” wavelength

Mid-Woof center-to-center < 17” quarter wave distance
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Old 16th July 2018, 06:57 PM   #5
yoke is offline yoke  Croatia
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Thanks LineSource,
Was thinking about 16P as I can cross it lower and can place on side of cabinet not woring would I be able to hear where the sound is coming from.

With 13 + 24 I would go with clasic look of loudspeakers
but will think about it

As I see 24 goes in like 30L for Qtc of 0.7...
What size of cabinet would you recomend for 24 with DSP in minde ?

ScottG, thanks but it sounds like pandora box to me...

Whell, I should watch football game, maybe than I would not get the idea about new project

Last edited by yoke; 16th July 2018 at 06:59 PM.
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Old 16th July 2018, 07:01 PM   #6
yoke is offline yoke  Croatia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LineSource View Post
Edge bevels are easier to cut than machining edge rounds

A side woofer must meet the quarter wavelength goal to maintain the illusion of a point source.

200Hz crossover = 68” wavelength

Mid-Woof center-to-center < 17” quarter wave distance
Thanks, I'm little slow as I'm on mobile phone
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Old 16th July 2018, 07:08 PM   #7
Windforce85 is online now Windforce85  Poland
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If you already possess two P830452 drivers there is no brainer what are you going to use for low-end extension. They are cheap, large stroke and also very high motor strength type of subwoofer drivers which is rarity nowadays. They will be perfectly happy in small 15 dm3 sealed boxes with DSP equalization. A pair of these in small sealed cabinets can go very deep but with not-so high efficiency which is to be considered when are you going to use it in larger room. Do not try to drive them higher than to 100Hz becouse they will become to sound sluggish. They will need at least a NC500MP to drive in order to utilize its full stroke in smallish box.

Last edited by Windforce85; 16th July 2018 at 07:14 PM.
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Old 16th July 2018, 08:05 PM   #8
yoke is offline yoke  Croatia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Windforce85 View Post
If you already possess two P830452 drivers there is no brainer what are you going to use for low-end extension.... They will need at least a NC500MP to drive in order to utilize its full stroke in smallish box.
Whell, I could give them a try, build some test cabinets
I have pair of LJM L30D ( thay are like 600W amplifiers so thay would do the trick )

will see in like 4weeks from now
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Old 16th July 2018, 09:14 PM   #9
tktran303 is offline tktran303  Australia
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I used them as woofers, up to 200Hz, with no ill apparent effects-

What's old is NEW again. Peerless XLS in sealed box, F3= 23Hz -

Techtalk Speaker Building, Audio, Video Discussion Forum
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Old 17th July 2018, 03:44 AM   #10
LineSource is offline LineSource  United States
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AudioExcite RAAL 140-15D review suggests 3kHz crossover for best sound and lowest distortion. For modest slope crossovers between 2.5-3kHz, the Satori MR13P and even MR16P look like a better match than the MW16P - which produces some beaming at these frequencies. To match these sealed box midranges, a (steep slope) woofer crossover ~200Hz is required from your P830452 drivers.

"The RAAL 140-15D is a ribbon tweeter made by the RAAL Company in eastern Serbia.

The RAAL 140-15D ribbon is made of a 21 sq. cm (14×1,5cm) pure aluminium flat foil which weighs 22mg. It has a sturdy build quality with a 2mm metal faceplate and uses a very powerful neodymium motor system. The ribbon provides a linear frequency response up to +40kHz with an outstanding horizontal off-axis dispersion and for a ribbon tweeter, low distortion and great vertical dispersion.

With special “foam deflection pads” it’s possible to adjust, control and improve the vertical dispersion and the so called vertical “beaming” of high frequencies, which is commonly seen among large ribbons.

The “foam deflection pads” are working as an acoustic lens, by slowing down the velocity of sound and thus shaping the sound wave front from cylindrical to spherical.

By using the “deflection pads” the high frequency response level can be adjusted to personal preferences without the need of additional padding resistors as well as adjusting and controlling both the vertical and horizontal dispersion.

Even though this ribbon tweeter is expensive, it’s one of the best measuring ribbon tweeters on the market and with innovative design features such as “foam deflections pads” and specially designed face plates etc.

To ensure a nice distortion safety margin I recommend using the RAAL 140-15D from 3kHz or higher. However by using steep cross-over filters it can be used from 2-2.5kHz with some elevated distortion and limited max output."
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