I was very excited when i picked these up, i have always wanted a pair!
They look awesome and belonged to one owner, who 3 years ago had them reconed (lockwood). They are made in 1979 and in mint condition.
So i was expecting to hear some beautiful breathtaking sounds coming from these, but instead they sounded dull and laid back, almost muffled, the bass was lacking. They just didn't hit the sweet spot i was expecting great things, my kef 105.2's and Ruark talismen II sound and perform much better.
I tried different amplifiers from my quad ii, pass alpeh m, B&W mpa1 etc but still they didn't sound right. Even my wife said they don't sound right, before she moaned at me about bringing bigger speakers home which don't fit
.
I thought perhaps the crossovers being almost 40 years old could do with some TLC, i know that these components can drift in value. I thought maybe they need room to breathe and need a big space?
If i put the volume up they start to sound better, but then it's just too loud to enjoy. Low listening levels are not a strong point with the speakers, they are just missing something.
Anyway i thought i'd take them apart replace the x overs.
Heavy speaker to take out i can tell you!
old crossovers look like new?! Not sure if these are original components or they have been replaced? Could these be the problem in how my speakers sound?
They look awesome and belonged to one owner, who 3 years ago had them reconed (lockwood). They are made in 1979 and in mint condition.
So i was expecting to hear some beautiful breathtaking sounds coming from these, but instead they sounded dull and laid back, almost muffled, the bass was lacking. They just didn't hit the sweet spot i was expecting great things, my kef 105.2's and Ruark talismen II sound and perform much better.
I tried different amplifiers from my quad ii, pass alpeh m, B&W mpa1 etc but still they didn't sound right. Even my wife said they don't sound right, before she moaned at me about bringing bigger speakers home which don't fit
.I thought perhaps the crossovers being almost 40 years old could do with some TLC, i know that these components can drift in value. I thought maybe they need room to breathe and need a big space?
If i put the volume up they start to sound better, but then it's just too loud to enjoy. Low listening levels are not a strong point with the speakers, they are just missing something.
Anyway i thought i'd take them apart replace the x overs.
Heavy speaker to take out i can tell you!
old crossovers look like new?! Not sure if these are original components or they have been replaced? Could these be the problem in how my speakers sound?
Well i didn't want to check or wait, i decided to contact Tony Morris from amocom Speaker Crossovers who built me a matched pair of replacement crossovers:
I have to say he did a lovely job, these are beautifully built. He did a quick turn around and is also a very helpful man.
comparing the new and old crossover:
Crossovers can only fit at the bottom as they are fairly large, they just fit with the original crossover installed.
I took before and after measurements using REW (roomeq)
Ill post my findings and let you know if there is a difference.
I have to say he did a lovely job, these are beautifully built. He did a quick turn around and is also a very helpful man.
comparing the new and old crossover:
Crossovers can only fit at the bottom as they are fairly large, they just fit with the original crossover installed.
I took before and after measurements using REW (roomeq)
Ill post my findings and let you know if there is a difference.
Sounds to me like the diaphragms of the high frequency drivers are not acoustically centered. Tannoy used a very narrow gap between the former and pole piece and if the diaphragm is not perfect;y centered the a lot high frequency lose will be experienced. Even new out of the box diaphragms can fail and will be replaced by Tannoy if this is the case. But this must be arranged at the time of service. Tannoys are very difficult to service in this regard.
You can try rotating the diaphragm to get them to center properly. This is how it is done. And if they won't acoustically center then the diaphragm must be replaced.
The workmanship on the recone of your set looks excellent.
Additionally check to see if one or both of the driver were wire out of phase. Remember the the high frequency driver is 180 degrees our of phase from the low frequency driver because it's driver from the rear of the diaphragm. These are common things to go wrong in service for any tech on a bad day. Can happen even with the very best.
I'm surprised you are not ecstatic about the way they sound. This tells me either something went terribly wrong with the service performed or something is damaged.
If the crossovers were rebuilt with components not selected by Tannoy this can lead to poor performance. Tannoy engineers took every aspect of component lose into the design. If a lower/higher lose component is used there goes your sound.
Also, it is very difficult to measure a dual concentric coaxial with a microphone that close.
I used to own an authorized Tannoy service center. My partner did the speaker work. That's how I know this.
I have a set of SL45 Chertsey. I wouldn't trade them for much.
Best of luck with these.
You can try rotating the diaphragm to get them to center properly. This is how it is done. And if they won't acoustically center then the diaphragm must be replaced.
The workmanship on the recone of your set looks excellent.
Additionally check to see if one or both of the driver were wire out of phase. Remember the the high frequency driver is 180 degrees our of phase from the low frequency driver because it's driver from the rear of the diaphragm. These are common things to go wrong in service for any tech on a bad day. Can happen even with the very best.
I'm surprised you are not ecstatic about the way they sound. This tells me either something went terribly wrong with the service performed or something is damaged.
If the crossovers were rebuilt with components not selected by Tannoy this can lead to poor performance. Tannoy engineers took every aspect of component lose into the design. If a lower/higher lose component is used there goes your sound.
Also, it is very difficult to measure a dual concentric coaxial with a microphone that close.
I used to own an authorized Tannoy service center. My partner did the speaker work. That's how I know this.
I have a set of SL45 Chertsey. I wouldn't trade them for much.
Best of luck with these.
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I thought of one other thing. The Tannoys you have are not designed for near field use. If you try to use them in a small space they will sound poor. In a small space the lobe can't form.
The high frequency driver doesn't extend much above 15kHz. Some guys like to add an addition high frequency driver that sits on top which extends above 20kHz and is a bit more unidirectional.
The high frequency driver doesn't extend much above 15kHz. Some guys like to add an addition high frequency driver that sits on top which extends above 20kHz and is a bit more unidirectional.
Actually i did this David, i used a pair of super tweeters that sat on top of the speaker and it made a big difference!
I thought they need room to breathe, thats probably why i am not getting the best from them.
You can try rotating the diaphragm to get them to center properly. This is how it is done. And if they won't acoustically center then the diaphragm must be replaced.
I couldn't find any handy videos showing how to do this!
The workmanship on the recone of your set looks excellent.
It's a fine job actually!
Additionally check to see if one or both of the driver were wire out of phase. Remember the the high frequency driver is 180 degrees our of phase from the low frequency driver because it's driver from the rear of the diaphragm. These are common things to go wrong in service for any tech on a bad day. Can happen even with the very best.
I will be sure to check this
I'm surprised you are not ecstatic about the way they sound. This tells me either something went terribly wrong with the service performed or something is damaged.
I will play with speaker placement and hopefully the new cross over gives them a new lease of life
If the crossovers were rebuilt with components not selected by Tannoy this can lead to poor performance. Tannoy engineers took every aspect of component lose into the design. If a lower/higher lose component is used there goes your sound.
Looking at the boards it looks original, the board doesn't look resoldered. As i said they look like new. If it is the old components there could be a chance that the components have drifted
Also, it is very difficult to measure a dual concentric coaxial with a microphone that close.
Well it's just a general measurement, I did a few tests from 10cm to 1M away away from the cone
I used to own an authorized Tannoy service center. My partner did the speaker work. That's how I know this.
I will be picking your brain then about sorting the HF diaphragm out
I couldn't find any handy videos showing how to do this!
The workmanship on the recone of your set looks excellent.
It's a fine job actually!
Additionally check to see if one or both of the driver were wire out of phase. Remember the the high frequency driver is 180 degrees our of phase from the low frequency driver because it's driver from the rear of the diaphragm. These are common things to go wrong in service for any tech on a bad day. Can happen even with the very best.
I will be sure to check this
I'm surprised you are not ecstatic about the way they sound. This tells me either something went terribly wrong with the service performed or something is damaged.
I will play with speaker placement and hopefully the new cross over gives them a new lease of life
If the crossovers were rebuilt with components not selected by Tannoy this can lead to poor performance. Tannoy engineers took every aspect of component lose into the design. If a lower/higher lose component is used there goes your sound.
Looking at the boards it looks original, the board doesn't look resoldered. As i said they look like new. If it is the old components there could be a chance that the components have drifted
Also, it is very difficult to measure a dual concentric coaxial with a microphone that close.
Well it's just a general measurement, I did a few tests from 10cm to 1M away away from the cone
I used to own an authorized Tannoy service center. My partner did the speaker work. That's how I know this.
I will be picking your brain then about sorting the HF diaphragm out
I have owned plenty of vintage Tannoys and none of them sounded dull.A bit the opposite if anything [especially the 15 Reds].
The lack of bass I can understand because most of them were put in boxes that were really too small for optimum performance and that also impacts on the midrange .Once you put them in a much bigger box [Onken style works well]everything starts to sound right.
For example the Tannoy 15 Golds can sound OK in a 100 litre box but if you put them in a 250 litre the performance shifts from just pretty good to a bit special.They change from sounding a bit PA-like to sounding wonderfully relaxed and musical.
The lack of bass I can understand because most of them were put in boxes that were really too small for optimum performance and that also impacts on the midrange .Once you put them in a much bigger box [Onken style works well]everything starts to sound right.
For example the Tannoy 15 Golds can sound OK in a 100 litre box but if you put them in a 250 litre the performance shifts from just pretty good to a bit special.They change from sounding a bit PA-like to sounding wonderfully relaxed and musical.
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Couple of points: HF diaphragms pretty well Self Centre.
Despite ALL silly bleats to the contrary.
Only a numpty could get it audibly wrong.. Yes that's accurate
Number of paper gaskets on the HF diaphragm.. Can make subtle differences tho, not big but noticable to a fastidious ear..
Experiment a wee bit .. if you must.
Even 40 yr old Tannoy X0vers do pretty damned well.
Yes they can be bettered (a slight bit) BUT Tannoy didn't get 'em wrong either.
BUT and it's an Important But New and improved Bespoke crossovers at Stupid costs.. are.. At Best. only a minor improvement, largely in the pocket of the vendors
Tannoys however DO respond astoundingly well to source and amplification quality
As in; these are exactly a case of Garbage in = Garbage out
Nelson Pass uses Tannoy HPD's as his reference speakers.. because they instantly reproduce even the most subtle of Amp Topology changes... good and bad.
Sooo..,. barring obvious physical driver damages Look to your Source (s) And Amplification.
IMO they are not even close to good enough... or you would be currently enjoying the Tannoys rather than whinging
Despite ALL silly bleats to the contrary.
Only a numpty could get it audibly wrong.. Yes that's accurate
Number of paper gaskets on the HF diaphragm.. Can make subtle differences tho, not big but noticable to a fastidious ear..
Experiment a wee bit .. if you must.
Even 40 yr old Tannoy X0vers do pretty damned well.
Yes they can be bettered (a slight bit) BUT Tannoy didn't get 'em wrong either.
BUT and it's an Important But New and improved Bespoke crossovers at Stupid costs.. are.. At Best. only a minor improvement, largely in the pocket of the vendors
Tannoys however DO respond astoundingly well to source and amplification quality
As in; these are exactly a case of Garbage in = Garbage out
Nelson Pass uses Tannoy HPD's as his reference speakers.. because they instantly reproduce even the most subtle of Amp Topology changes... good and bad.
Sooo..,. barring obvious physical driver damages Look to your Source (s) And Amplification.
IMO they are not even close to good enough... or you would be currently enjoying the Tannoys rather than whinging
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Yes what Bare said.
Amp matching is critical to get the best out of them but what is best can be surprising.
One of the best amps I have heard with them is the Bakoon 7511 Mk3 [Japan] 15 watt integrated.
Other than that a good strong EL34 PP usually works well.I have also used an Almarro 318B SET and a First Watt F5 [a bit boring] with decent results but the Bakoons are really special.
Amp matching is critical to get the best out of them but what is best can be surprising.
One of the best amps I have heard with them is the Bakoon 7511 Mk3 [Japan] 15 watt integrated.
Other than that a good strong EL34 PP usually works well.I have also used an Almarro 318B SET and a First Watt F5 [a bit boring] with decent results but the Bakoons are really special.
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late night , so I can be wrong with amp ........ is that Leak Stereo 20 on top , right ?
anyway - even semi decent CD player , ditto in passive preamp/solo pot , feeding either Leak or Quad II , then to Tann boxes .... it must give divine sound
not exactly HiFi in nowadays meaning of term , but better than that , if you ask me
possible reasons for (anything) muddy - something outa phase - either complete cab to another , or bass to bass , or squawker to squawker
Tannoy original xovers are (almost ) spot on , in electrical values and topology ...... but caps can be better , resistors slightly better and chokes/autoformer much better
though , if switches are not dirty/scratching/intermittent in contact , xovers alone can't be responsible for bad sound; you know they're drek only when you exchange them for something better ...... but those on pics aren't that ;
when I see Tann 15" xover (any ) sans autoformer , I know that 1.5 (at least) db is missing in squawker level , in most sensitive area ........ there is plenty to cut in Tann squawker response , but also plenty ( of importance ) to gain in that autoformer
make test of polarity ( 1V5 battery will do the job) to see are cones moving in same direction
also - triple check polarity of HT drivers - for starters be sure that they're connected both in same way ; if in doubt about their polarity in general , take a picture of present situation , then swap leads on both of them , listen and stay with iteration which pleases you most
hey - if nothing else helps - remove xover totally from picture , leave bass cone non-xovered , and put just 2-3uF in series with HT driver .... and listen
you'll get 70% of Tann sound , rest of 30% is in proper xover
if nothing else , you'll see what (almost ) raw connected drivers can do
anyway - even semi decent CD player , ditto in passive preamp/solo pot , feeding either Leak or Quad II , then to Tann boxes .... it must give divine sound
not exactly HiFi in nowadays meaning of term , but better than that , if you ask me
possible reasons for (anything) muddy - something outa phase - either complete cab to another , or bass to bass , or squawker to squawker
Tannoy original xovers are (almost ) spot on , in electrical values and topology ...... but caps can be better , resistors slightly better and chokes/autoformer much better
though , if switches are not dirty/scratching/intermittent in contact , xovers alone can't be responsible for bad sound; you know they're drek only when you exchange them for something better ...... but those on pics aren't that ;
when I see Tann 15" xover (any ) sans autoformer , I know that 1.5 (at least) db is missing in squawker level , in most sensitive area ........ there is plenty to cut in Tann squawker response , but also plenty ( of importance ) to gain in that autoformer
make test of polarity ( 1V5 battery will do the job) to see are cones moving in same direction
also - triple check polarity of HT drivers - for starters be sure that they're connected both in same way ; if in doubt about their polarity in general , take a picture of present situation , then swap leads on both of them , listen and stay with iteration which pleases you most
hey - if nothing else helps - remove xover totally from picture , leave bass cone non-xovered , and put just 2-3uF in series with HT driver .... and listen
you'll get 70% of Tann sound , rest of 30% is in proper xover
if nothing else , you'll see what (almost ) raw connected drivers can do
Re: The HF Diaphragm;
Here's the distortion profile ( 2nd + 3rd Harmonic ) of one diaphragm needing attention and another operating in spec. ( seen within REW ).
3rd Harmonic should always be below 2nd H when viewed at these levels ( & observed within its normal operating range ).
Since the OP has already captured an REW trace for one of his speakers, he only needs to look at the distortion profile for his HF driver to determine if it needs any attention.
Here's the distortion profile ( 2nd + 3rd Harmonic ) of one diaphragm needing attention and another operating in spec. ( seen within REW ).
3rd Harmonic should always be below 2nd H when viewed at these levels ( & observed within its normal operating range ).
Since the OP has already captured an REW trace for one of his speakers, he only needs to look at the distortion profile for his HF driver to determine if it needs any attention.
The original crossover layout by Tannoy is excellent as Zen said however there are possible improvements to be had in execution.
First thing is to replace any electrolytic caps of course.
The other thing Tannoy itself researched is that hard-wiring the crossover is better than a PCB.
The switches are a weak point but can be bypassed in your preferred position.
The resistors and the autoformer are totally unproblematic and should last forever.
As far as I remember the tweeter in the original crossover is inverted in polarity compared to the woofer and I think that is done at the 4pin plug that connects drivers and crossover.
Replacement crossover usually omit the autoformer since they are not available and would have to be custom wound at some cost. That is probably ok but I quite like it there.
With it you via the switches you can adjust roll off and level without it only level.
I find the switches surprisingly useful to voice the speaker to the room/personal preference. During their research Tannoy also found that the switches can influence sound quality negatively and on some later speaker models using K series drivers hardwired the crossover and replaced the switches with gold-plated pins but those only lasted for 2 years before the pepperpot K series was replaced by the twin magnet, tulip drivers.
The one point I'll be making which probably will split opinions is that what you have are K-series drivers and these were designed to be used with transistor amps.
In my experience they benefit hugely being driven by high-quality SS amps which can deliver high to very high current very quickly. Much more so than practically any other speaker I've come across. Especially the bass sounds lower and tighter the more instant current is on offer on every volume level.
For my 12" K-series LittleReds Tannoy recommend up to 350W/ch and they are only rated 125W!
First thing is to replace any electrolytic caps of course.
The other thing Tannoy itself researched is that hard-wiring the crossover is better than a PCB.
The switches are a weak point but can be bypassed in your preferred position.
The resistors and the autoformer are totally unproblematic and should last forever.
As far as I remember the tweeter in the original crossover is inverted in polarity compared to the woofer and I think that is done at the 4pin plug that connects drivers and crossover.
Replacement crossover usually omit the autoformer since they are not available and would have to be custom wound at some cost. That is probably ok but I quite like it there.
With it you via the switches you can adjust roll off and level without it only level.
I find the switches surprisingly useful to voice the speaker to the room/personal preference. During their research Tannoy also found that the switches can influence sound quality negatively and on some later speaker models using K series drivers hardwired the crossover and replaced the switches with gold-plated pins but those only lasted for 2 years before the pepperpot K series was replaced by the twin magnet, tulip drivers.
The one point I'll be making which probably will split opinions is that what you have are K-series drivers and these were designed to be used with transistor amps.
In my experience they benefit hugely being driven by high-quality SS amps which can deliver high to very high current very quickly. Much more so than practically any other speaker I've come across. Especially the bass sounds lower and tighter the more instant current is on offer on every volume level.
For my 12" K-series LittleReds Tannoy recommend up to 350W/ch and they are only rated 125W!
Why would that be? These loudspeakers have impedance correction which you can see from the impedance plot. It's as flat as it can be. Very few speakers have such easy impedance plot. These speakers were made to require very little current from the amp, mostly because they follow design principles from valve amplifiers era. They need a lot of voltage, and that's the reason why Tannoy recommends such powerful amps. These speakers were made for loud listening. They have enormous dynamic range. They prefer popular music, funk, soul, rock, not classical. That's the reason why studios that record classical almost never use Tannoys for monitoring.
One thing I noticed about them is that with solid state amps it's very difficult to achieve good reproduction of massive string sections in classical music. It's almost always peaky and row sounding. I do not know the reason. May be that for some reason unknown to me peaking response of the compression horn driver somehow shows in spite of all the effort to tame it with crossover.
No idea, just an observation I made over 20 years of owning them and trying a number of amps and other speakers.
I can see no electrical reason why they should behave like that because on paper they seem to be a quite benign load as you pointed out but they do thrive on high current, low output impedance amps.
Re: The HF Diaphragm;
Here's the distortion profile ( 2nd + 3rd Harmonic ) of one diaphragm needing attention and another operating in spec. ( seen within REW ).
Have tried swapping the drivers to eliminate the possibility of the crossover.
My pic actually shows Altec 802 driver/diaphragms, though the problem of poorly aligned diaphragms applies to virtually every manufacturer that I can think of.
( Yes ), the displayed distortion was minimized by re-seating the suspect diaphragm ( not by swapping or otherwise touching the other well working driver ). Those 2 drivers were tested through the same hi-pass circuit.
I'd say that a good 20% of the almost 150 drivers that I deal with ( with older JBL models have a higher % ) need to be re-seated to minimize distortion products ( & response irregularities ).
Even all the newer so-called "self-centering" diaphragms ( ie B&C, Celestion, etc. ) need a helping hand from time to time.
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