Ribbon Tweeters

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I'm looking to replace my Monacor ribbon tweeters which are okay but just , I'm looking at Founteks and am open to suggestions . It's in a three way, woofers are Vistaton ws200s, Morel dome midrange, Philips/ Monacor Ribbon . Sealed enclosure crossovers 850hz, 4500hz 2nd order . The pic is a bit lousy but you get the idea. PhotoEditor-1508042569075.jpeg
 
Hi,

Believe you need to rethink just changing out the tweeters. As the crossover network needs to be designed for the speakers used, you could easily make things worse. Unless you are willing to install the tweeters, test and redo the crossover network, you are just gambling that sound will be "better".
And crossover networks are quite hard to get right.
 
Hi,

Believe you need to rethink just changing out the tweeters. As the crossover network needs to be designed for the speakers used, you could easily make things worse. Unless you are willing to install the tweeters, test and redo the crossover network, you are just gambling that sound will be "better".
And crossover networks are quite hard to get right.
Yes I should have mentioned that I was going to pull the crossovers out and redesign them . Thinking of going with external crossovers from now on anyway.
 
On certain notes the tweeter really distorts, these I bought second hand. After a bit of research I found that what appeared to be their replacement, which has an fs of 4500 Hz . I really would like cross a bit lower anyway. Also in the mood to seriously change the crossover components

I've used the Fountek NeoCD3.0 extensively in Statements designs and the AST2560 Brett linked to in the Bordeaux.

The NeoCD3.0 works best if crossed around 3.5K (smaller Fountek need a higher crossover) or slightly above and the AST2560 can cross as low as 2K. Both measure extremely well if used correctly and crossed appropriately.

Both are very nice sounding with each having it's own character but I like the AST2560 the best. Super clean and accurate sounding. The AST2560 is more money than the NeoCD3.0 here in the US.

HTH

Jim
 
I've used the Fountek NeoCD3.0 extensively in Statements designs and the AST2560 Brett linked to in the Bordeaux.

The NeoCD3.0 works best if crossed around 3.5K (smaller Fountek need a higher crossover) or slightly above and the AST2560 can cross as low as 2K. Both measure extremely well if used correctly and crossed appropriately.

Both are very nice sounding with each having it's own character but I like the AST2560 the best. Super clean and accurate sounding. The AST2560 is more money than the NeoCD3.0 here in the US.

HTH

Jim
Thanks Jim
 
I have not seen any true ribbon tweeters that perform well below 7 or 8kHz, regardless of price and reputation.
Above that they can be very good though.
Huh ?

I'm using my Aurum Cantus G2 down to 3Khz, with a 4th order Linkwitz/Reilly high pass.

I wouldn't want to go any lower than that or use less than 4th order though. In what way do you think they would not "perform well" ? And compared to what ?
 
A decent dome.

The distortion curves for ribbon tweeters I've seen feature a rapid rise below 5-7kHz from the cheapest ones to the most expensive.
High enough for me to disregard ribbons completely below that.
But of course YMMV.
Measured a lot of domes that have a rapid fall off at 12khz too. As I said I cross at around 4500 right where the Philips ribbon seems to resonate. I have had domes but to me they lack a bit, but okay if you could recommend a dome that doesn't fall off from 12khz . I'm welcome to suggestions for tweeters with 92 db.
 
Are you sure you need 92 db sens tweeter?

Which Morel mid dome is that? Do you know its sensitivity?

I assume those woofers are the 8 ohm version with two in parallel. That woofer rated at 86 db sens, so two parallel would give 92 db sens.

However your cabinets look to be around 10 inch wide so by the time you figure in the baffle step you will end up with a woofer sensitivity somewhere between 88-90 db. If you use them close to rear wall then maybe 90 db. If pulled out into room enough to get best sound then closer to 88 db.

This can make a difference in the number of good tweeters available.

Also.. many mid dome can be difficult to use. I see trouble with some of these domes in the 4-6 khz range that can make you think the tweeter is acting up but it can sometimes be the mid has some breakup going on right at your crossover point wich can be the worst place to have it.
 
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Thanks for that the Morel has a sensitivity of 90.5 db, it's the Cam 558 round version of the mdm 555 , the woofers are the 4 ohm versions and in series. Unfortunately I don't have the frequency response graph for the mid. I see your point regarding the break up and yes that was another reason to lower the crossover frequency. I'm a bit of new bee so crossover help would be appreciated.
I have tried to match sensitivity as much as I can and I could put in Lpad for the suggested tweeter. I have installed REW and have the minidsp usb microphone for measurement the speakers are about a metre into the room off the back wall.
 
I have used the Aurum Cantus G2 (not Si version) crossed at ~2500, 4th order and ~3500, 2nd order with good results. It is very similar to the Fountek NeoCD3.0. (If you are bored, compare the Frequency/Impedance charts of the two to see how similar. :)).

I have also used the G2's newer cousin, the APR2.0 (with embossed rather than folded ribbon) crossed at 2500, but this was using a Kaiser-Bessel FIR filter, so not really apples-to-apples.

I've used the Fountek NeoCD3.0 extensively in Statements designs and the AST2560 Brett linked to in the Bordeaux.

The NeoCD3.0 works best if crossed around 3.5K (smaller Fountek need a higher crossover) or slightly above and the AST2560 can cross as low as 2K. Both measure extremely well if used correctly and crossed appropriately.

Both are very nice sounding with each having it's own character but I like the AST2560 the best. Super clean and accurate sounding. The AST2560 is more money than the NeoCD3.0 here in the US.

HTH

Jim

Jim,

I absolutely agree about the AST2560. Although I have not had a chance to hear or work with the highly regarded Mundorf drivers (that I understand are pretty amazing), I have never been impressed with an AMT type device as much as I have the AST2560. I need to find some of that precious commodity, "Spare Time", to finish up a design I have been working on that uses them, paired with BG Neo10 mids. Nice components like that sitting in a closet is shameful...

KJK
 
Thanks for that the Morel has a sensitivity of 90.5 db, it's the Cam 558 round version of the mdm 555 , the woofers are the 4 ohm versions and in series. Unfortunately I don't have the frequency response graph for the mid. I see your point regarding the break up and yes that was another reason to lower the crossover frequency. I'm a bit of new bee so crossover help would be appreciated.
I have tried to match sensitivity as much as I can and I could put in Lpad for the suggested tweeter. I have installed REW and have the minidsp usb microphone for measurement the speakers are about a metre into the room off the back wall.

Ok well is the mid dome tamed down with a resistor network to match the low sensitivity of the woofer section?

1- If those woofers are really 86 db sens and in series then we start with 86 db. Then with a baffle step we are down to around 82-83 db sens for the woofer section. If baffle step has even been figured into the crossover.

2- If that mid is really 90 db or so then on that baffle it will be 90 db, quite a bit higher sens than the woofer section.

I suspect this system always sounds forward and overall ( especially when sub woofer turned off) it will sound bright. Unless that mid dome and tweeter are tamed down with resistor networks ??


Some times a system can sound quite ugly and distorted not so much because the drivers are bad but simply because the overall voicing is way off.

I would start by taking some measurements so we can see whats up but my guess is the overall tonal balance is off by enough to cause problems that will have to be dealt with first before any good judgments can be made about the precieved issues
 
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Ok well is the mid dome tamed down with a resistor network to match the low sensitivity of the woofer section?

1- If those woofers are really 86 db sens and in series then we start with 86 db. Then with a baffle step we are down to around 82-83 db sens for the woofer section. If baffle step has even been figured into the crossover.

2- If that mid is really 90 db or so then on that baffle it will be 90 db, quite a bit higher sens than the woofer section.

I suspect this system always sounds forward and overall ( especially when sub woofer turned off) it will sound bright. Unless that mid dome and tweeter are tamed down with resistor networks ??


Some times a system can sound quite ugly and distorted not so much because the drivers are bad but simply because the overall voicing is way off.

I would start by taking some measurements so we can see whats up but my guess is the overall tonal balance is off by enough to cause problems that will have to be dealt with first before any good judgments can be made about the precieved issues
I might have stuffed up thinking that there 88db sensitivity and adding 3db with there being two of them. You can't tell in the photo but they sit on neoprene gaskets proud off the baffle. I have made some full frequency responses and yes your right they do sound rather forward and a little bass shy .
I'll have a good read of REW again and do some impulse sweeps tomorrow. Thanks for analysis, you mentioned 86 db, yet the site I use mentions 88 db. So in series with two they don't get the 3db additive effect ? I have a pair of Plessey woofers hmmm might check that out.
 
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