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Old 23rd April 2004, 11:52 AM   #11
Salas is online now Salas  Greece
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Default PHL 15''

You can use a PHL 15'' up to 1.6 KHz no problem. I have done it.
You can have 2way and sensitivity and spl and power handling.
Reminding you the Nexo PS15 which uses the 5320 but I would opt for the lower sensitivity lower fs and better sounding variant that you can see in their site www.phlaudio.com
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Old 23rd April 2004, 05:32 PM   #12
RyanC is offline RyanC  United States
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Let's see-

CeramicMan- My current speakers-


I can't say that I know excatly what absolute values I am looking for in terms of max spl. What I know is that I wan't them to be able to be cleaner and considerably louder than my current system. And ultimately I am talking about in-room loudness- This is a 850SF room with heavy acoustic treatment (6" of rock wool insulation on all walls, acoustic foam on the cieling now but soon to be 3" of rock wool also).

AP- the M2 is kinda what I am going for- or really it would be more like the air25 because I am going for the tunable active type setup- I guess the title of the post really should have been studio mains-


The only major difference is that The AC G1 tweeter can be crossed over much lower than the fabric dome they use-

So what about this-

Aurum Cantus G1 tweeter

XO- (somewhere between 1k and 3k depending on the slope steepness and what sounds best etc)


XO- somwhere between 100-200 depending on the revalators max spl/distortion/xmax factors come to play

Aura- ns 12

One qustion about the the max spl of a HP filtered mid bass-

How can I calculate a rough max spl- each octive lower requires 2 x the wattage to equel the same amplitude right??

So if the revelators (roughly speaking here) can handle 60w to produce 100dB @ 30 hz- then 60w can produce 106 dB at 120hz?? or 109 dB at 240hz??

Salas- I am still leaning away from a 2 way like that, a 15" driver becomes very directional at 1.6k right?? I generally fell like somthing like the revalator would give me tighter better mids (from 120- 2k or so) than a big old 15" driver.

Also one thing with the crossover that I forgot to mention is that I am not tied to any specific XO frequencies-

What I mean is that the sub drivers could be LP filtered at 120 hz at 12dB/Oct and the mid bass drivers could be HPF'd at 100HZ at 18/dB/OCt and LPF'd at 1.5k at 48 dB/oct- All filters are selectable between LW and butterworth and the xo will provide automatic delay compensation for each driver- meaning that a driver with only a 12dB/Oct filter will be auto time alligned with a driver with a 48dB/oct filter-

Here is a link to that:


BTW: I would never use it's built in SRC- if I am recording at 44.1 or 48k I will just go analog out and in- If I am recording at 96k Then I will go direct via AES/EBU- But the 96k opteration is good because it lowers the latiency of Hi Q filters-and increases thier overall quality and accuracy- especially in the higher octives. Plus it has a nifty little program for the computer that allows you to easily set all of it's settings - and save presets. This might even be a great tool for you passive guys to test different XO setups without haveing to change components.

thanks again,

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Old 23rd April 2004, 05:40 PM   #13
RyanC is offline RyanC  United States
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Oh I forgot to mention the rest of my current system-

I have a pair of paradigm monitor 9's that are decent (ppwered by the bryston 4b-st) They have a similer charicter to the NHT's tonally speaking but are a bit easier on the ears-

I also have a polk sub with 2 -12's it is really more of a novelty than anything else, I can turn them all on and off from my listening position- It provides a big 60hz but not a whole lot beneath that. It does help just to ensure that there is no massive speaker damaging bass that the NHT's would not really tell me about, and all the rappers love it!!

As for now the system I am thinking about building would replace the paradigms in my layout- for now i will keep my NHT's because I am used to them (and so are my clients)- No matter what I will always have some type of smaller nearfield and larger mid/far field (although they are probably both in the nearfield from my sweet spot). If this goes well then the smaller nearfields are next- thanks again,

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Old 23rd April 2004, 09:27 PM   #14
Salas is online now Salas  Greece
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Default 15'' etc

The PHL 15'' does not sound closed in up to 1.6K. Also the Nexo PS15 which is THE wedge monitor for vocals delivers just that...good mids among other things.
Better use an 8-10 inch PHL (they have a fantastic sounding 8'' & a 10'' one) down to 100Hz and cross to an active sub. Dont take the AC1 near 1K you dont like voices to come out from a ribbon from so low. Trust me on that. Another thing to remember is when you cross from a wide polar to a line source, the difference is too apparent. I would take the 8 inch up to 2.5K.
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Old 23rd April 2004, 10:47 PM   #15
GM is offline GM  United States
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At a glance, sounds like you need to find a used pair of Urei 815Bs: http://www.jblproservice.com/pdf/Vin.../UREI-815B.pdf

Loud is Beautiful if it's Clean! As always though, the usual disclaimers apply to this post's contents.
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Old 24th April 2004, 01:57 AM   #16
RyanC is offline RyanC  United States
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So GM:

I've never used the 815b but I have used 811b's and 813b's- There a little too vintage sounding for my taste- I know that might seem offinsive, but I don't mean it to be. I just have ears for tighter puchier speakers. When I used the urei's in the past i spent most of my time listening to the small nearfields (genelecs).
That's why i'm shooting for more of a mid field monitor type design. Not PA speakers for your studio and not little no real bass monitors (I already have those!!)

Also they are HUGE!! and they really deserved to be soffit mounted- Which is as big of a DIY project (if not bigger) than building the speakers myself.

I'm going more for somthing like this-


However I don't fell the need to use only eton drivers (and the tweeter looks like the ER-4 but that mid ribbon is still unavailable). I think Eton, LPG and ADAM are the same company no?

Plus my take is this all those $5000 a piece speakers have amps that are not the equvolent of my bryston- and there are better amps than it (no doubt) so a modualar system gives me infinit upgradeability.


Is it your opinion that the phl 8" is the best driver for 100hz to 2.5khz? Is there a sheilded version available?

Also do you think I should get a cheaper tweeter (like maybe the aurum cantus g2 or fountek jp-3) if I am going to x it over that high anyway? Or would it be better to have the G1 and use softer slopes?

Also are there any takers on rather or not steep slopes will have ringing problems on a dsp based XO? Can anybody tell my why steep slopes cause ringing?

And one more- Is there any DIY shielding solution available?? This would greatly increase the amount of drivers that would work in my configuration.
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Old 24th April 2004, 06:57 AM   #17
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I may have been way off the mark earlier about my reasoning for your ears fatiguing. I think it may be much simpler than things like ringing, and the more subtle ringing from sharp crossover filters. It may be that the tonal balance changes at high volume towards a much brighter treble, due to the midwoofer not coping and distorting a lot.

Sonic compression of bass frequencies just from the heat buildup will make hardly any difference, but if the woofer's cone is moving several millimetres, it may be compressing the bass mechanically, and thereby producing a lot more midrange and upper midrange energy. If the amp is clipping, then the situation will be even worse.

Despite my ideologies, I think an MTM, or MTMM design could be a very good solution in this case. Multiple midwoofers (of moderate efficiency but very smooth sound) such as aluminium 6.5" Seas/Visaton/Alcone ones in some series-parallel combination will probably sound much smoother than a PA-style high efficiency single woofer. Furthermore, if you research things about "baffle step" compensation and things like that, you will also find that 2 woofers in close proximity will be up to 3dB more efficient in the bass, on top of a 3dB increase from a doubling of power consumption. In the midrange and treble however, the woofers are relativity far apart (with reference to wavelengths), and they do not have that efficiency boost of 3dB. This will be to your advantage because at high volume the tweeter will not stick out like a sore thumb, as it probably does now. I have my doubts about all those "high efficiency" midwoofers. Sure, their midrange is efficient as anything, but they never seem to have huge rubber surrounds to cope with their just as highly efficient bass performance.

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Old 24th April 2004, 02:39 PM   #18
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Just on the subject of the ADAM speakers, I was lucky enough to have a quick demo of them, and a chat to their chief sales guy over a beer last year at IBC in Amsterdam. The drivers are AMTs, proprietary to them, and not rebranded, and sound pretty damn good. The rep was interested to hear that the diy community are always interested in new tech, but pointed out that ADAM, as a relative newcomer, needed to get a market base established for its main products before selling components. But he didn't rule it out...
I conceive of nothing, in religion, science or philosophy, that is more than the proper thing to wear, for a while. Charles Fort
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Old 24th April 2004, 11:17 PM   #19
RyanC is offline RyanC  United States
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Thanks CM;

I have been wondering- I know that in many MTM or MTMM or whatever designs, people often only use one woofer for the mid band. For a mtm this is often called 2.5 way design- I understand that this is important because it is preferable not to have such a large radiating area for the mid range speakers- Is this more or less correct?

So my felling is a dedicated mid would;

Mate with a ribbon better-


have less IM and doppler effect caused by the same driver being responsible for High xmax frequencies as well as delicate mid freq-

BTW; I am not really attracted to the PA style speakers- although I do know that many are very good-

Also- The Aura is an aluminum cone driver- I am all for stiff cones- llke I said I like the puchy modern sound wich is usually (in my experience atleast) associated with stiffer cones

Can you recomend any Mid-Bass drivers that I should consider for this purpose? What about the Jordans? maybe the jx125? Or a seas excel maybe?


If those woofers are proprietary to ADAM then sombody has a bulletproof lawsuit on there hands- The both use the word "hexacone" to describe their woofers if they are not eton's then there is no way they can both use the term hexacone- and by the way they look identical too!! Maybe they are made by eton specifically for the ADAM monitors though- (and the tweeter could be different but they look real similer to me) Either way I am not super attricted to the eton line anyway- thanks again,

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Old 25th April 2004, 11:33 AM   #20
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Originally posted by RyanC
...Can you recomend any Mid-Bass drivers that I should consider for this purpose? What about the Jordans? maybe the jx125? Or a seas excel maybe?...
Of the Auras, Jordans, and Excels, I think the Excels are the best. I was intrigued by the E J Jordan speakers though: they use extremely thin "profiled" metal foil cones in their designs with very well controlled cone break-up modes at high frequencies. Dunno about the longevity of such speakers under sustained high volume though. Nevertheless the waterfall plots look much nicer than anything I've seen for paper cones...

Visaton do a 3" titanium dome midrange I think.

It all depends on what you have in mind for the woofer. Visaton speakers and Seas (Excel or Standard) speakers are probably quite safe bets for both bass and midrange.

You'll have to consider how big you want the enclosures to be, ported or sealed, and choose a woofer to suit. I think I might be able to help with designing for a "punchy" bass sound via unconventional tuning of a ported box (which requires a smaller than usual box), but I'll only know for sure in a few days after some more DIYing.

An Excel W18EX001 could be good for a midrange speaker. I think that a low electrical Q factor (Qes) means that internal box resonances can't escape through the cone that easily, but it also means that the magnet has to be large. For a Seas midrange I'd also consider: W15CY001, W12CY001, L12RCY/P, L14RC/P, L17RE/P, L18RNX/P, L18RCY/P.... Note that many of the measurements of the Seas site are not made with a standard large baffle, so the bass performance might look bad even if it's not. All of those should go to around 3kHz without problems, but the best size for you will depend on things like max power, bass, and sensitivity.

Eton actually seems pretty good to me for midrange performance. Their cones are made of two layers of kevlar fibre or something similar, with a honeycomb mesh material in between for extra thickness. This achieves a competitively stiff cone (in the same league as Al or Mg alloy), but without the metallic 5kHz to 10kHz ringing of the Seas cones.

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