Go Back   Home > Forums > >
Home Forums Rules Articles diyAudio Store Blogs Gallery Wiki Register Donations FAQ Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

Seas Excel W18EX001 vs Scan-Speak 18M/4631T00
Seas Excel W18EX001 vs Scan-Speak 18M/4631T00
Please consider donating to help us continue to serve you.

Ads on/off / Custom Title / More PMs / More album space / Advanced printing & mass image saving
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 28th June 2018, 12:51 PM   #21
3wayaddict is offline 3wayaddict  Netherlands
diyAudio Member
 
3wayaddict's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Netherlands
Quote:
Originally Posted by TMM View Post
One solution is to put another driver of an intermediate size between a 6.5" driver and a tweeter - say a 2" dome mid then cross at say 700Hz and 3kHz. Another is to substitute the 6.5" driver with something smaller (~4.5") and have your bass driver play higher - perhaps 400Hz instead of 250Hz. This goes against the idea to get one driver playing as wide a frequency range as possible however. Everything is a compromise in one way or another - just gotta pick your battles
I kinda want to stick the 6,5" mainly because of that last part. 250 Hz is the absolute highest crossover frequency I can take with my woofers. The first resonant frequency is at about 289 Hz and I'm not using usual woofers, I'm using two 8" SB-Acoustics SB23MFCL45-4 subwoofers so they really aren't gonna be appealing to 400 Hz. And if you think you can change my mind on my choice to use subwoofers, these in particular, you can't. The first intentions for this system were with a subwoofer but I had to throw it out of the window because of space issues but because I still want subwoofer level bass performance I must and will use internal subwoofers. And of course "space issues" are another subject for you to complain about but please don't. No speaker on earth will work in my attic room and these towers in my room are probably one of the worst combinations ever but I want to build something real good which will keep satisfying my already high and still raising expectations for a while. It will only be a couple of years till they might end up in another room anyway. I'm 15 and at my parents place.
__________________
When you do it, do it right. Go all out.
  Reply With Quote
Old 28th June 2018, 01:17 PM   #22
3wayaddict is offline 3wayaddict  Netherlands
diyAudio Member
 
3wayaddict's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Netherlands
But what are you thoughts on the Illuminator dome? What if I would cross it at 2 - 2,3 kHz or so? And with what order should I do it? I really don't know much at all when it comes to crossovers.
I'm gonna send an email to where I got the Founteks from. I'm over the return period but not that long, they have already accepted a Dayton Ultimax which I already had for two months. I think I have had the Founteks like three weeks. From now on I'm probably just gonna wait with buying drivers until I have raised enough money to buy everything at once. Returning products is a way too often returning tradition of mine but it's not a bad thing. I return them all the time because I get better ideas with the help of you guys!
__________________
When you do it, do it right. Go all out.
  Reply With Quote
Old 28th June 2018, 01:31 PM   #23
5th element is offline 5th element  United Kingdom
diyAudio Member
 
5th element's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: England
If your 15 then you really do need bang for your buck. I was like you once and I think at your age I was using the w15cy001s as my mids and a scan speaks d2905/9700 for the tweeters.

The Excel magnesium cones make excellent midrange drivers but do need to be crossed over relatively low.

I vastly prefer the option of dropping the ribbon tweeter for a dome than going with a different midrange.

Sometimes more expensive things aren't always better so don't just assume, because it isn't big bucks, that it won't be suitable.

The easiest way around this would be to buy a pair of SEAS DXT tweeters. These will happily work down to 1.5kHz with a 4th order acoustic crossover (they'll even do a second order acoustic down that low but the W18 need a 4th) and play loud. You could even take them lower if you wanted.

If used correctly these tweeters sound sublime and I used them with the w15s a while back to great effect, along with an rs 225 in a small three way.

If you don't want the DXT then the other option is to use a waveguide on a standard dome. Both of SB acoustics standard line dimple domes work great in waveguides and will cross very low to boot. I'm talking the SB29RDs.

Put them in a monacor wg300 or a visaton wg148 and cross them at 1.2-1.3kHz.

If you want an alternative midrange then you'll need something like the mw13 from SB Acoustics for the ribbon.
__________________
What the hell are you screamin' for? Every five minutes there's a bomb or somethin'! I'm leavin! bzzzz! Now with website! www.5een.co.uk under construction.
  Reply With Quote
Old 28th June 2018, 02:07 PM   #24
Mario Pankov is offline Mario Pankov  Europe
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sofia
Seas Excel W18EX001 vs Scan-Speak 18M/4631T00
Quote:
Originally Posted by TMM View Post

The overall level of harmonic distortion seems to be very close between the 18M and 18M. The 18W peaks up in 3rd order distortion at 400Hz and the 18M peaks up with similar severity at around 1kHz. These are probably due to minor cone/suspension resonances.
www.audioexcite.com >> Blog Archive >> ScanSpeak 18W/4531 Measurements!
Test Bench: Scan-Speak 18M-4631T00 Revelator 6.5” Midrange Driver | audioXpress

I had measurements of the 4 ohm 18W and mine looked similar to Goran`s. That said, the 18M is the better choice as it has lower distortion and can be crossed at 1.8-2Khz. The 2nd order spike in distortion is caused by the foam suspension and is seen on the impedance plot too. The 18W has a broad peak in 2nd order distortion hence its softer mellow sound, it has the same suspension issue caused by the rubber ring. Besides, 18M has lower mass due to the foam suspension and cone is different of the 18W -00 version (both are Kurt Muller cones).

The MR16 driver has a different cone geometry and a rising response - its motor is superior to the 18W and distortion is lower. It is less directional than the 18W and has a MMS of 10.4gr compared to 14.2gr for the Scanspeak mid but only 119sqcm, hence the lighter cone. It does look to me as they took a standard midwoofer and shortened the coil, I wouldn`t call it exactly a true midrange.

If I was you and wanted to absolutely use the ribbon, I`d go for a smaller mid or a Fostex FE208EZ. Using the ribbon too low would yield the same or worse results as if you used a cheap dome. The only ones I can think of that can do 2Khz and that with a steep crossover are the Raal 140-15 and the Bozhen CQ76.
  Reply With Quote
Old 28th June 2018, 02:16 PM   #25
3wayaddict is offline 3wayaddict  Netherlands
diyAudio Member
 
3wayaddict's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Netherlands
I've send an very kind email to the store. I suggested to swap them for a MiniDSP 2x4 and UMIK-1 or for just a little less like €100,-/each but they are very kind so they might probably agree. Fingers crossed!

I really appreciate your suggestion of the Seas tweeter so I can still take the W18EX001 and it certainly doesn't look bad but I think by now a slightly less expensive but still on the same price class and supposedly still one of the best ever Scan-Speak Revelator mid in combination with the Scan-Speak dome which also belongs to the very best best will as a total sound better then a just slightly better Seas mid but with a way less smooth and probably less good sounding in the real world Seas tweeter. In combination I will probably choose the Scan-Speak mid and tweet over the Seas mid and tweet.

Of course I want the best possible for my money but I don't think bang for the buck are the right words. I'm willing to pay quite something and rather buy something seriously good than something good for it's price point.
__________________
When you do it, do it right. Go all out.
  Reply With Quote
Old 28th June 2018, 02:20 PM   #26
3wayaddict is offline 3wayaddict  Netherlands
diyAudio Member
 
3wayaddict's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Netherlands
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mario Pankov View Post
www.audioexcite.com >> Blog Archive >> ScanSpeak 18W/4531 Measurements!
Test Bench: Scan-Speak 18M-4631T00 Revelator 6.5 Midrange Driver | audioXpress

I had measurements of the 4 ohm 18W and mine looked similar to Goran`s. That said, the 18M is the better choice as it has lower distortion and can be crossed at 1.8-2Khz. The 2nd order spike in distortion is caused by the foam suspension and is seen on the impedance plot too. The 18W has a broad peak in 2nd order distortion hence its softer mellow sound, it has the same suspension issue caused by the rubber ring. Besides, 18M has lower mass due to the foam suspension and cone is different of the 18W -00 version (both are Kurt Muller cones).

The MR16 driver has a different cone geometry and a rising response - its motor is superior to the 18W and distortion is lower. It is less directional than the 18W and has a MMS of 10.4gr compared to 14.2gr for the Scanspeak mid but only 119sqcm, hence the lighter cone. It does look to me as they took a standard midwoofer and shortened the coil, I wouldn`t call it exactly a true midrange.

If I was you and wanted to absolutely use the ribbon, I`d go for a smaller mid or a Fostex FE208EZ. Using the ribbon too low would yield the same or worse results as if you used a cheap dome. The only ones I can think of that can do 2Khz and that with a steep crossover are the Raal 140-15 and the Bozhen CQ76.
Oops, was already typing. I know the SB-Acoustics are better in those respects but I don't know how they sound in the real world in comparison to the Scan-speak. I'll do some searching.
__________________
When you do it, do it right. Go all out.
  Reply With Quote
Old 28th June 2018, 02:49 PM   #27
5th element is offline 5th element  United Kingdom
diyAudio Member
 
5th element's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: England
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3wayaddict View Post
Scan-Speak Revelator mid in combination with the Scan-Speak dome which also belongs to the very best best will as a total sound better then a just slightly better Seas mid but with a way less smooth and probably less good sounding in the real world Seas tweeter.
On what are you basing this assumption? The W18 + DXT will offer lower linear distortion if correctly used and have superior off axis performance due to the wave-guide of the DXT. You have made an assumption about the SEAS DXT tweeter just because it isn't in the excel line of drivers. Non-linear distortion will be very low for both setups.

I'll repeat, just because something is more expensive doesn't necessarily make it better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3wayaddict View Post
Of course I want the best possible for my money but I don't think bang for the buck are the right words. I'm willing to pay quite something and rather buy something seriously good than something good for it's price point.
I didn't mean this in terms of getting the most for the least amount of money, I meant spending your money wisely to get the job done, whilst already using what you've got.

Chasing drivers from the best lines, just because they are from the best lines, isn't a road to success. It's a road to becoming poor.

Sometimes you need to spend money to get something and sometimes you don't. For example I had to spend on the B&W FST midrange drivers that I use because of their relatively unique parameters and construction. But what tweeters do I use? 20 ones. Why? Because these suit the task that I want them to perform the best out of any tweeter I can find. Have I tried different tweeters and driver configurations (ones that cost more) you bet, do they sound better? No!

Bang for buck would be using something like the Tymphany DQ25SC in a wave-guide with the W18. Believe it or not this could be made to work very well but would need everything tuned correctly because you'd be really pushing the tweeter to its limits. The DXT tweeter, or the SB29RDs offer far more flexibility and would be harder to blow up if you did something wrong.

Quote:
I know the SB-Acoustics are better in those respects but I don't know how they sound in the real world in comparison to the Scan-speak.
I'll stress here that the crossover is 99% of how a speaker sounds 1% is the drivers (providing they are all being used suitably and are equal in their usability). Do not get caught up on expensive drivers when it's not needed.
__________________
What the hell are you screamin' for? Every five minutes there's a bomb or somethin'! I'm leavin! bzzzz! Now with website! www.5een.co.uk under construction.
  Reply With Quote
Old 28th June 2018, 04:03 PM   #28
3wayaddict is offline 3wayaddict  Netherlands
diyAudio Member
 
3wayaddict's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Netherlands
Okay I've left all my prejudices behind and taken a closer look at the test benches and compared the 18M, 18W an MR16P-4.
The W18 does indeed have less distortion than the 18M but at the cost of the impuls respons and some loudness but then the 110,2 dB of the W18 is just unnecessary. The 18W still produces a nice 106,9 dB which is okay and of the W18 the G01 would be the better than the G00 choice because it is better at a couple of things including distortion and frequency response and none of these advantages go at the cost of other compromises. Then the MR16P-4 has even lower, extremely low in fact, distortion, smoother frequency respons and it's impuls respons is better. The first downward movement after the impuls is slightly more stretched out but the upwards movement directly after is near entirely gone. But it only gets to 105 dB which is quite on the lower side.
__________________
When you do it, do it right. Go all out.
  Reply With Quote
Old 28th June 2018, 04:52 PM   #29
3wayaddict is offline 3wayaddict  Netherlands
diyAudio Member
 
3wayaddict's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Netherlands
Holy Jesus. I just found this website, they have all the top of the line components for tens of euro's less than the site I was first looking. Now I can afford all of the top of the line stuff without any compromises!
This site is amazing!
__________________
When you do it, do it right. Go all out.
  Reply With Quote
Old 28th June 2018, 04:57 PM   #30
3wayaddict is offline 3wayaddict  Netherlands
diyAudio Member
 
3wayaddict's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Netherlands
The Seas Excel Millennium is a amazing tweeter which can be crossed low enough so that I could use the W18EX001 with it right?
__________________
When you do it, do it right. Go all out.
  Reply With Quote

Reply


Seas Excel W18EX001 vs Scan-Speak 18M/4631T00Hide this!Advertise here!
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
nice speakers. Seas Excel and Scan Speak vactor Swap Meet 11 17th January 2015 03:05 PM
FS: Speakers (Scan Speak, Seas Excel), Electronics (Tube Amps, Preamps) etc. PHilgeman Swap Meet 8 28th October 2008 02:22 AM
FS SEAS Excel W18EX001 juno Swap Meet 10 18th October 2007 12:50 PM
F.S Scan Speak, Seas Excel, Fountek, Dynaudio Beau Swap Meet 11 23rd May 2007 03:45 AM
Seas H1224 alu compared to Excel W18EX001? cyclo Multi-Way 6 17th June 2005 01:31 AM


New To Site? Need Help?

All times are GMT. The time now is 01:59 AM.


Search Engine Optimisation provided by DragonByte SEO (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Resources saved on this page: MySQL 14.29%
vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright ©1999-2018 diyAudio
Wiki