silk purse from sows ear contest?

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I know this may seem somewhat odd for many, but I would suggest the limit to be 30USD for US shops, and roughly 37EUR for EU shops.
If the 20USD limit is impossible to move, the limit should be 27EUR for European based shops. I know the direct exchange value does not even remotely add up, but it is more realistic for Real Life projects, and actual end cost (when shipping is added later on) would be more comparable, another point is that it would add more diversity in terms of driver choices/local brands for each contender.
It would also open the possibility for US participants to calculate EU prices on drivers from EU shops where that may be beneficial, opening up for different choices.
"Buy out" or "limited production" drivers should be banned, because it may limit people that want to build the "Winner" design after the contest, if the drivers that participated are no longer available.

Again, this may not make sense for everyone, but just my two cents to "balance it out" a little bit. The 30USD/37EUR per channel limit should be on drivers alone, but for 50% increased budget you could have the option to include amplifier AND filter costs, allowing more expensive drivers but dirt cheap amps, or expensive amps and dirt cheap drivers. Scavenging of cables, box material, dampening material and power supplies is legal and expected?

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And: US and EU shop prices can not be mixed ofcourse. Pick one continent.
 
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I was trying to show restraint. :p
40 euro is closer. But I have a reason for the 37 Euro limit!
The +50% for amps and filters should follow the value of where you purchase/calculate cost of the speaker drivers.
So you could calculate for instance get 37 euros/channel worth of speaker drivers in Europe, and use the remaining 50% to buy parts for amps+filters from any other place in the world.
Or get cheaper drivers from the US, but then you'd loose the equivalent of 3 Euro 50 Cents + the currency difference on parts for amps and filters.
Shipping still not included.

The limits for other currencies/locations would have to be adjusted accordingly. It is impossible to get it 100% equal, but it should be possible to at least even out the odds a little bit.


Should be higher score for complete systems.
37€ (or 40€?) vs 30$ per channel for speakers only. score *1
55.50€ (Or 60€?) vs 45$ per channel for a complete system (speakers, power stage and filters) sans pre stage. score *1.7

Prices have to be normal online prices, and a reference screenshot of shopping basket for all to see.
 
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added / edited $30 limit USD prices, or 37 EU prices for both sides of the pond.

As to amps and PSU - I would not think so. We should reiterate DSP /built in amp crossovers / tone controls etc should all be flat or off. Any DSP should be part of the $30 limit. This forces the dsp and crossover parts to come at the expense of cheaper drivers.
 
That was sort of my point:
You get some score for staying under max budget (some points are added for cash left), if the sound reproduction is within a certain quality you get points for that too, and you also get some points for the end result in terms of apparent build quality.

Build the 30$/37€ if you want, just the speakers, fine.

The +50% limit is suggested if it includes amplifier and xo, because it offers real value to the people that do not have the money to just build stuff for the fun of it. If there is a good recipe for quality sound reproduction, with no need for added cost, 55-60€ per channel, it significantly lowers the bar for people to get into this hobby. 110-120€ (let's say 100$) for a set of stereo speakers, with amplifier and crossovers, of decent quality...
This should get higher score, because it really offers a complete setup, for very little extra money, you should get rewarded 70% extra scorepoints. Nothing fancy, got to stay within the just slightly larger budget.

We all gain from this, I was gonna go for 1st order crossovers or maybe just 2nd order PLLXO because it's cheap, but there is no way this is gonna be easy, the fun part is allowing for a large number of different combinations. I at least would really enjoy seeing what people can do if allowed just a little bit of slack, so not everyone gets the same drivers and build the same stuff immediately, that would mean there is no real competition.

You're the boss Jared, your thread.
 
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The amp just adds complication. I'd rather see the $30/31€ go to drivers and crossover parts. Maybe in the next contest we can do amps and active filters. Simple steps first.

Do you think everyone will use the same drivers? I don't think there will be too many repeats.
 
I think forcing everyone to use the same drivers is a different contest - it puts an unfair burden on people for shipping vs allowing them to choose something locally available. I agree, amps are a whole giant can of worms.

@KaffiMann - I am not the boss, I just came up with an idea and am facilitating it, aka doing my best to be able to include as many people as possible. What about just choosing some price points such as $20, $40, $80 and those are the three categories for judging? People can choose which ever suits their budget / available drivers / or performance level they are interested in bothering to try and achieve. I can understand that some people might not be interested in bothering with a $20 limit, but an $80 limit might intrigue them. I think the whole point of the contest idea is to do more with less.

The point I do not fully agree with you on is that the higher price limit competing with the lower price limit is so hard to arbitrarily apply a correction factor to. I would have actually expected that a $40 unit will be enough better than the $20 unit that it should be penalized substantially. I think the simplest option is to just create categories at the price points so there is no need to try and correct between price tiers. I personally would like to build a $20 unit and a $40 unit using similar drivers and see if the extra money makes enough difference that blind A/B testing can point to substantial improvements!
 
I get your point Jared.
But part of the idea I had was to use REGULAR cost speaker drivers, no buyouts, not discounts. Because if people want to build it later, they can do so, and very likely pay about the same as the contestants.
If you hunt for discounted items or limited stock, then what's the point? Better if someone else can gain from this after the dust has settled.

And regarding the higher price, it was just a suggestion. But it would be more difficult, and if you still get good measurements with a low cost amp solution the +70% score would be fair in my eyes.
Doesn't matter.

Edit:
Maybe:
Tier 1: 20$ or 30€/channel cost max for drivers and filters, no other rules apply. Free for all, no holds barred.
Tier 2: 30$ or 40€/channel cost max for drivers and filters, but no discounted items or buyouts.
Tier 3: 50$ or 60€/channel cost max for drivers, filters and amps, no discounted items or buyouts.
Tier 4: 80$ or 90€/channel cost max for drivers, filters, power stage and pre stage, pre stage is expected to either have a DAC or RIIA input. No discounts or buyouts.
?
 
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That's a good point that the measurement conditions would probably have to be standardized. Also, the set of measurements would have to be standardized as well. For example, should this include off-axis measurements, or on-axis only? If off-axis is included, do you do both vertical and horizontal?
Basically impossible to accomplish unless everyone measures outside in a big open space (not everyone has access to one) or constructs a room with identical dimensions (not financially practical).

I think if we are running a 'competition' it would be better to standardise the drivers, the dimensions of the baffle and the placement of the drivers on said baffle.
The competition is then to design the crossover. This would be far more fun IMHO as everyone can try each others crossover designs, measure, listen and decide for themselves. People can flaunt their own measurements if they so wish, and people who prefer to design without relying so heavily on measurements, or don't own measurement equipment, can still participate too.

It's probably best to pick some drivers available in the US since most people are in the US and most US distributors ship overseas. If you live overseas like I do then you get hit with the exchange rate and shipping but that's too bad. At least everyone is still on an even playing field as far as the quality of drivers used.

Might I suggest:
Dayton Audio DA175-8 7" Aluminum Cone Woofer
Peerless by Tymphany BC25TG15-04 1" Silk Dome Tweeter

These are known good performing drivers, so anyone can be happy that we are making speakers which can actually sound good, not just trying to make $20 of garbage sound barely listenable. They are drivers that should hopefully be around for some time yet, so DIY'ers can benefit from the designs for years to come. The DA175 also presents some crossover design challenges, so would make for an interesting 'competition'.

If we still want to keep it really cheap then perhaps:
Peerless by Tymphany 830656 5-1/4" Paper Cone SDS Woofer
dunno about tweeter, maybe this?
GRS 1TD1-8 1" Dome Tweeter 8 Ohm
 
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IME, limiting the driver options to one set really limits the creativity. If you nail down that criteria, you'll have fewer entries, and most will sound quite similar. This mantra is what 'Iron Driver' contests have been about in the past.

IMO, setting a realistic subset of rules that allow vast options are what creates the difference from one set to another. When I set out to define rules for the poll options I post for the up and coming InDIYana events, I try to allow enough creativity to not box everyone into one category or option for results. Thus far, I've had a really vast variety of designs show up for the theme portion of this event. I intend to keep it that way for InDIYana.

Everyone chooses drivers differently when a goal is given. Please allow them the chance to do what they would do to achieve their goal in the design process.

I say pick a volume of box, pick a price range to work within, and go!
Later,
Wolf
 
My suggestion.

1) Cost limit $50 US for one speaker, convert your local currency to US (they're 180 world currencies). If you scrounged left overs or went dumpster diving you still need a market based equivalent web price. Sale prices and buyout prices are OK and will highlight were deals can be found.
2) Your costs exclude shipping, tariffs, taxes, etc to equalize prices across regions. Costs also exclude fasteners, glue, paint, and wire.
3) Absolutely no restrictions on your design to encourage risk and creativity.
4) You have to declare how you measured (equip + setup) supplying both the FR and THD. You loose points for questionable practices (ie. 1/2 octave smoothing).
5) Point based scoring. Points subtracted for exceeding cost, deviation from flat or reduced FR, excessive THD, and missing / poor docs (price proof, measurement quality) and using external EQ (DSP). Points added for lower cost and creativity.
6) Judging by panel (nominated or volunteered) based of forum posted data package.
 
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