Yes, latency is my issue with linear-phase too.
The Linea processor makes it very easy to exchange linear-phase and IIR on the fly. It is good for IIR to 48 dB/oct, and linear-phase LR equivalent xovers at 24 dB/oct. It automatically pads delay times to keep outputs time aligned.
Another yes, merging IIR with linear-phase down low, is what started this thread for me....trying to look at the electrical response before moving to the acoustical response.
Lake is awesome stuff...good for you.
I do wish it allowed user loaded FIR files..
Which is maybe why you're thinking about miniDSP ?
I have 4 openDRCs that give 8 channels of 6144 taps @48kHz.
I use it with a Midas digital stagebox so the openDRCs are digital in and out, and completely routeable in matrix fashion.
I really like it as a test bed. But it's a little complicated to take out to live gigs....hence I needed to get the Linea.
Manninen, i can t too.
But maybe this is because the fir implemented in the Lake are really good? I have been told this by multiple professionals that use them to earn their life with.
And this could explain why there is so much limitations when you want to use the fir in brickwall low end (the slope start to not be brickwall anymore... sometimes less than what to expect from iir filtering the lower you go!)
Mark: in fact i differenciate xover purpose and drc. That is why i think about a ddrc (to help making some room correction). Honestly i don t need to have total access to whatever kind of filter i want for crossover, the solution implemented in the Lake fullfill my needs (brickwall, 48 and 24 db/octave) and they SOUND good to me (i ve heard xilica and another one i can t remember when i purchased the dsp and wasn t as impressed as the dolby but who knows maybe this is placebo or selfconvincing...
).
I haven t heard accourate but been told it is quite good too but it is not convenient for my use (i still do some studio duties from time to time).
That being said when i see the graph of Wesayso room AND system i m inclined to try drc for my own room/loudspeaker system! (Not without acoustic treatment... but to help them!).
It is just i m an oldschool kind of guy: one knob : one function, one box: one treatment.
And we all have different needs and approach. Mine are probably different from yours.
But maybe this is because the fir implemented in the Lake are really good? I have been told this by multiple professionals that use them to earn their life with.
And this could explain why there is so much limitations when you want to use the fir in brickwall low end (the slope start to not be brickwall anymore... sometimes less than what to expect from iir filtering the lower you go!)
Mark: in fact i differenciate xover purpose and drc. That is why i think about a ddrc (to help making some room correction). Honestly i don t need to have total access to whatever kind of filter i want for crossover, the solution implemented in the Lake fullfill my needs (brickwall, 48 and 24 db/octave) and they SOUND good to me (i ve heard xilica and another one i can t remember when i purchased the dsp and wasn t as impressed as the dolby but who knows maybe this is placebo or selfconvincing...
).I haven t heard accourate but been told it is quite good too but it is not convenient for my use (i still do some studio duties from time to time).
That being said when i see the graph of Wesayso room AND system i m inclined to try drc for my own room/loudspeaker system! (Not without acoustic treatment... but to help them!).
It is just i m an oldschool kind of guy: one knob : one function, one box: one treatment.
And we all have different needs and approach. Mine are probably different from yours.
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Hi again, yes the FIR slippage is very easy to see with software like rePhase or FirDesigner, that show design slope vs achievable slope, given the number of taps used.
Sometimes I check those with REW and they tie very well.
I've made a rule of thumb that says I need about 4/3 x the period of the lowest freq i want to keep linear phase.
This is for both linear-phase xover and any driver phase correction also needed.
So for 500Hz for example, 2.66ms of FIR time needed.
This rule of thumb seems to hold up for 24dB/oct slope, maybe 48 if no driver correction also needed.
Mark it depends on the number of ways you need in brickwall.
It can be achieved something around 3ms if you can live with iir in the low end and keep fir for 500hz and up.
My current three ways are xed at 500 with 48db and 180db at 6k iirc.
Edit just checked: 2,5ms. 93,6db at 6k with a three way filter... poor me i don t break the 100db wall!
It can be achieved something around 3ms if you can live with iir in the low end and keep fir for 500hz and up.
My current three ways are xed at 500 with 48db and 180db at 6k iirc.
Edit just checked: 2,5ms. 93,6db at 6k with a three way filter... poor me i don t break the 100db wall!
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Well the hardware accept up to 192khz input digital (downsampled at 96k for internal treatment) 24bit, internal duties is 32bit.
Not to bad for a box almost 16 years old.
An other reason i choosen it is the converters are great. Almost on par with Lavry blue of 10 years ago... Only area it could have been better is clock. I ve heard it locked to a cranesong hedd and antelope clock and there was a clear upgrade. Pricey upgrade though...
Not to bad for a box almost 16 years old.
An other reason i choosen it is the converters are great. Almost on par with Lavry blue of 10 years ago... Only area it could have been better is clock. I ve heard it locked to a cranesong hedd and antelope clock and there was a clear upgrade. Pricey upgrade though...
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Manninen: yes, rme aes32. But i came from pro world and still use gear from my previous life...
Mark: mine is a dlp4d8 which have been upgraded to d12.
It s a shame there is no more support for it anymore... labgruppen decided to stop support for it some years ago.
If you want the latest upgrade you ll have to invest in a labgruppen amplifier! There is much worst choice of amplifier but it is not cheap! And who needs 10kwatts at home?
About the manual... well i must admit this is clearly a pro audio one! I still wonder what is the use of some features and the gui sometimes doesn t help...
You have to keep in mind this was aimed at pro (very big) pa and cinema so some features are clearly dedicated. And it has a kind of matrix for in/out so it can lost you really fast... if you use digital mixed with analog.
Mark: mine is a dlp4d8 which have been upgraded to d12.
It s a shame there is no more support for it anymore... labgruppen decided to stop support for it some years ago.
If you want the latest upgrade you ll have to invest in a labgruppen amplifier! There is much worst choice of amplifier but it is not cheap! And who needs 10kwatts at home?
About the manual... well i must admit this is clearly a pro audio one! I still wonder what is the use of some features and the gui sometimes doesn t help...
You have to keep in mind this was aimed at pro (very big) pa and cinema so some features are clearly dedicated. And it has a kind of matrix for in/out so it can lost you really fast... if you use digital mixed with analog.
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Krivium, my only experience with Lake, has been with the LM26..studying the manual to ascertain how its FIR worked. I see the dlp4d8/d12's extra capability.
Another shame IMO is how processors are getting embedded into amps....who needs every amp to have it's own processor?
I wish they'd just give us AES3 or Dante inputs and a really nice converter in the amp, lieu of all the processing...
10kw at home? uh oh, I'm listening to about 13kW right now....admittedly probably only running a watt or two at this very instant....but when it's time to throttle down, oh yea! haha
Another shame IMO is how processors are getting embedded into amps....who needs every amp to have it's own processor?
I wish they'd just give us AES3 or Dante inputs and a really nice converter in the amp, lieu of all the processing...
10kw at home? uh oh, I'm listening to about 13kW right now....admittedly probably only running a watt or two at this very instant....but when it's time to throttle down, oh yea! haha
Yes Mark i know... 13kw with 108db efficient speakers at home! You are crazy!
About labgruppen choice i understand them. With big pa every amp needs it own processor nowadays.
I ve seen some installation which gave me headache just seeing them... and i m used to big analog inline consoles like ams/neve or ssl!
This is definitely pro gear aimed at that market, sometines digital and analog are mixed so you can t provide only digital.
It ll arrive that is sure but for now both exist and could be used.
I understand your point though. For example the new hypex plate fusion ncore use an ad/dsp/da in signal path. Deal breaker for me! No i won t insert another adda in my chain! Why don t they give access to a direct input to the amp? But you know this the future..
So i m looking for older 'vintage' labgruppen... oh god i must be vintage too now!
About labgruppen choice i understand them. With big pa every amp needs it own processor nowadays.
I ve seen some installation which gave me headache just seeing them... and i m used to big analog inline consoles like ams/neve or ssl!
This is definitely pro gear aimed at that market, sometines digital and analog are mixed so you can t provide only digital.
It ll arrive that is sure but for now both exist and could be used.
I understand your point though. For example the new hypex plate fusion ncore use an ad/dsp/da in signal path. Deal breaker for me! No i won t insert another adda in my chain! Why don t they give access to a direct input to the amp? But you know this the future..
So i m looking for older 'vintage' labgruppen...
oh god i must be vintage too now!
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Since you are not using insanely steep crossovers (which would need insane filter lenghts) the pre-ringing is not severe in your case. I think that is the reason why it is not audible, and I guess it is not just you alone who can't hear it ....
There is a JAES article from Finland dealing with FIR length and audibility of pre-ringing BTW.
Regards
Charles
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