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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

Is there such a thing as too big?
Is there such a thing as too big?
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Old 14th June 2018, 01:34 AM   #31
Coytee is offline Coytee
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bentoronto View Post
I was assuming Jubilee owners would be placing them mid-wall like the other mid-wall speakers from Klipsch. I'm not sure how it performs relative to a Klipschorn if kept in a corner.

I don't know much about MWM boxes but they sure don't appear to aim for horn loading any too low at all.
If memory serves me correctly (probably been 10/12 years since I was told this) there were several goals in mind when the Jubilee came about.

1. Keep same footprint of Khorn
2. Keep bottom end extension of Khorn
3. Raise crossover point so it could be used in a 2-way system
4. (not sure if this was a goal or a happenstance result) lower distortion

The Jubilee "will" go along the wall just like a LaScala might go along the wall....however, you get the most bottom end with the Jubilee if you have it within "about" 10" of the corners (a lot more flexible than the Khorn in that respect)

They hit all their design goals. If I recall the conversation correctly, the Jubilee has (something like) 1/4 the distortion that the Khorn puts out.... reworded, the Khorn (which is already generally considered low distortion) has four times the distortion of the Jubilee.

The conversations I had that I'm basing these recollections from were from personal visits to Hope over multiple occasions (with larger crowd of people) and talking to Roy himself (Delgado, PWK's right hand man and co-designer of the Jubilee bass bin....and likely the sole designer of the K402 although I don't know that to be factual)

Forgetting about their imposing presence in a room (as those 402's are huge), you ask rhetorically why anyone might want a Jubilee in their home.... I'm guessing you've never heard them.

(disclaimer: Jubilee, LaScala and MWM owner.....started collecting them in 1979)

Roy has a PEQ for those who use an active that bumps the output at 32 Hz. Yeah, it's not 12 Hz.... but for everyday listening, they're not so bad.


Last edited by Coytee; 14th June 2018 at 01:41 AM.
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Old 14th June 2018, 10:02 AM   #32
Coelacanth is offline Coelacanth  New Zealand
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I've been thinking about what has been said and had a pretty good measure up this evening.

As an alternative to the big horn cabs, could an Onken or MLTL using something like a GPA 416 driver be designed to match the footprint of the K402 horn (circa 1000mm x 650mm x 420mm), or am I trying to make the tail wag the dog?

Aesthetically, Onken or MLTL is going to win out over a Jube or MWM any day. Guess I would be looking at an active system and my lust for super high efficiency would not be fulfilled.

Particularly interested in your comment here GM, if you can spare a moment or three.
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Old 23rd June 2018, 04:11 AM   #33
GM is offline GM  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by etalon90 View Post
This is the dilemma I'm currently in. (~55-500hz range)

A-
wondering about quad 15" or even quad 18"

B-
on the other side, I wonder if a front mid-bass horn would do better
Like the Inlow dual 18" or maybe a dual 15" horn.
JBL 2240 60hz midbass horn - The Paper Horn by Inlow Sound

never heard either implementation and I read opinions from people whom I respect. (some tried/experienced both)
it's about 50/50 split....
Well, for 500 Hz at high SQ, you'll need multiple XOs to taper them unless you plan to sit a long ways away from them. I was thinking in terms of a two stage 'V' baffle with phase plug with HF [Synergy concept] horn in the middle [poor man's Jericho].

Of course we make do with greater spreads due to room acoustics, individual hearing acuity/perception, so as a frame of reference, the practical XO limit is ~350 Hz/2nd for [8] 15", ~500 Hz/2nd for [4] is often a 'good enough' summation in many apps, with [2] 18" = ~450 Hz.

Note that in my case that short of an audibly better design, I was thinking in terms of a two stage 'V' baffle with phase plug with HF [Synergy concept] horn in the middle [poor man's Jericho] + true [infra] bass system.

Frankly, IMNSHO, anyone interested/committed to high SQ horn systems ideally needs to audition the various types of DSL systems before making any decisions.

IOW, unless one has a long, large enough room to sit far enough away from a collection of separate speaker systems to sum 'good enough' over distance, then the system ideally needs to be scaled to suit the room for best overall performance and my SWAG why I much prefer the cobbled together flat baffle corner [conical] horn since the huge compression horn system was built for a two story cathedral ceiling, ~ 46 x 26 ft. brick construction room and now resides in a somewhat lossy studded drywall, floating [suspended] floor ~16 x 24 x 8 ft ceiling one.

Still large compared to many [most?] folks within the 'sound of my voice', but with a ~16 ft max listening distance to the sound wall it's just not nearly long enough to sum 'good enough' [to my ears] at 500 Hz with the current ~128 Hz acoustic center [c-t-c] spacing.

All that said, at least experiment with raw drivers to find what vertical and horizontal spacing[s] one can live with along with what polar response[s] keeps the first reflections to behind one's ears from at least 1 kHz-up [per Dr. Geddes] [~500 Hz my impirically arrived at limit] to set the practical limits.

Once done, it pretty much sets the component, etc., design limitss and if the polar response winds up with the < 90 degrees of a corner horn, then you'll know how much toe-in and/or sound/side wall damping will be required and don't forget/ignore floor, ceiling reflections where putting the 500-1 kHz system[s] up high, angled down is a good acoustical solution, i.e. good speaker design dictates acoustical solutions to solve acoustical problems to maximize system efficiency.

Much better to go conical, but with it needing to be a full WL to load Vs the 1/2 WL of the compression horn, system depth will of course either push XOs much higher for a given room size/shape if not a Synergy/Jericho [MEH] concept or making them a better choice overall where a very long or short listening distance dictates toe'd in, narrower or wider than normal polar responses.

GM
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Old 23rd June 2018, 04:43 AM   #34
GM is offline GM  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coelacanth View Post
As an alternative to the big horn cabs, could an Onken or MLTL using something like a GPA 416 driver be designed to match the footprint of the K402 horn (circa 1000mm x 650mm x 420mm), or am I trying to make the tail wag the dog?
Sure! I de facto recommend this or mount it to a flat baffle if the cab's wider than the horn and cover some/all of it with open cell foam to 'taste' to damp reflections back to the throat.

Most folks ignore me though apparently since the pioneers quit doing it for the most part as cost cutting apparently became increasingly the dominant design criteria, ipso facto DIYers don't need to plus often prefer the 'look' of just the horn perched on top.

FWIW, IME the Onken is a no-no looks wise with women plus can only be tuned by stuffing the vents plus sound wise has a highly resonant sound due to all the comb filtering of the vent's out of phase pipe harmonics with the driver's output.

Many obviously like this harmonic distortion, but for those of us prefering heart attack 'fast'/'tight' [mid] bass, some type of low tuned OB/IB, vented TL or large horn is the way to go if space permits.

GM
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Old 23rd June 2018, 10:03 AM   #35
Brett is offline Brett
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coelacanth View Post
I have been considering building a pair of Klipsch Jubilee clones
If you don't mind me asking, where are you getting the K402s and what is the $ damage? PM is fine if you don't want to post publicly.
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