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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

Is there such a thing as too big?
Is there such a thing as too big?
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Old 13th June 2018, 08:25 AM   #21
chris661 is offline chris661  United Kingdom
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GM View Post
Yep, typical big systems discussed/built on most forums are all about efficiency/SQ in a HIFI app, not how loud they play per se. To go 'live' OTOH takes a bit more: 20,000 Watt Home Hi-Fi System

GM
IME as a live sound engineer, you don't need that much to go as loud as a drum kit - my main PA system manages that whenever I bring it out, and that's 1x 1.4" exit (3" diaphragm) HF, 2x 10" mids and up to 4x 15" subwoofers per side.

Looks like modern drivers can take a lot more (ab)use compared to the ones he used.

Chris
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Old 13th June 2018, 10:01 AM   #22
bentoronto is offline bentoronto  Canada
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Is there such a thing as too big?
I can't think of any reason you'd want a Klipsch Jubilee speaker at home. It doesn't play low or nice. May be suitable for rock concerts, not quality at home.

I lived with a Klipschorn bass for several decades. No better way to fill your room with great gobs of clean bass, although not accurate (not a very flat freq response) and certainly not very low, by standards today. But the Klipschorn is a true horn. (OK, maybe Klipschorn owners aint got no respect for the lesser-horn Klipsch boxes.)

There's no sense today creating a system with even a slight ambition to be noteworthy that isn't bi-amped or tri-amped and no serious system should lack a DSP. I'd then ask (1) how am I going to make sub-woofer sound and (2) the rest.

Thinking separately about (1) and (2) will help you grapple with the design much better. Lots of great ways to handle each realm separately*; but the Jubilee puts your crossover in a band that is unhelpful since it makes a poor sub and you can produce upper-bass in a lot better ways.

If going big is your wish, I'd just get a few sets of Quad electrostatic panels. You will instantly become an A-List person.

B.
*here's a fun way to get down to 12 Hz
17 foot pipe sub 12-230 Hz 5dB
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Last edited by bentoronto; 13th June 2018 at 10:11 AM.
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Old 13th June 2018, 12:23 PM   #23
davewantsmoore is offline davewantsmoore  Australia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coelacanth View Post
I know the MWM are designed for huge spaces / outdoors. Does anyone see any fundamental issue with my plan based on the space described? Thanks.
I have MWM clones in a similar sized space. No problem.

Your HF horn could be a bit too high, for seated, but could work well for a general purpose room.
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Old 13th June 2018, 01:53 PM   #24
marco_gea is offline marco_gea  Italy
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Originally Posted by GM View Post
Been there, done that for several decades until I was forced to sell off some stuff to keep my house, winding up with just my two dual 15" 'subs' using the same Altec 515B drivers like in the ~35 Hz corner horns and frankly, while I miss some of the super high efficiency perks; all things considered I much prefer the drivers in the large, corner loaded MLTLs, finally understanding why the great horn designer Dr. John K. Hilliard chose IB loaded dual 803 [416A] for his seemingly large, open, yet still acoustically fairly small home system:

https://ia902502.us.archive.org/Book...46266&rotate=0

https://ia902502.us.archive.org/Book...46266&rotate=0


GM
Very cool! Thanks for posting this.
Do you have any other similarly-themed articles that you could share?
Cheers,
Marco
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Old 13th June 2018, 02:17 PM   #25
bentoronto is offline bentoronto  Canada
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Is there such a thing as too big?
Quote:
Originally Posted by bentoronto View Post
... the lesser-horn Klipsch...
I was assuming Jubilee owners would be placing them mid-wall like the other mid-wall speakers from Klipsch. I'm not sure how it performs relative to a Klipschorn if kept in a corner.

I don't know much about MWM boxes but they sure don't appear to aim for horn loading any too low at all.

Back in 1969, I had a buddy who built a house (in New Jersey) to play his Klipschorns. He had all the audio tools and engineering skills in the world at his disposal, at the time, as a senior scientist at Bell Labs. Mounted below the speakers, he had large enclosures (sealed, I think, maybe IB) to handle the low bass. Very nice sound.

B.
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Last edited by bentoronto; 13th June 2018 at 02:28 PM.
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Old 13th June 2018, 03:43 PM   #26
GM is offline GM  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chris661 View Post
IME as a live sound engineer, you don't need that much to go as loud as a drum kit - my main PA system manages that whenever I bring it out, and that's 1x 1.4" exit (3" diaphragm) HF, 2x 10" mids and up to 4x 15" subwoofers per side.

Looks like modern drivers can take a lot more (ab)use compared to the ones he used.

Chris
We'll have to agree to disagree assuming you're not using a compressor or similar to severely limit power hungry transients/sub harmonics [IIRC a kit drum's is around 8 Hz], a standard practice in prosound for as long as I can remember. FWIW, just now saw someone else that claims his huge horn system with a massive sub system can only do a drum kit at near live levels in his room: best 18' drivers that can go flat 20Hz

For sure! My '50s era Altecs and similar vintage high performance prosound drivers up into the early '70s will self destruct if driven much beyond their low power ratings due to the VC glues, coatings can't handle much VC heat rise, hence the need for extremely efficient systems.

Basic driver design hasn't hardly changed since the 1920s, but manufacturing, materials, etc., technology is light years ahead, resulting in power handling capability the pioneers probably never even dreamed of.

GM
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Old 13th June 2018, 03:46 PM   #27
GM is offline GM  United States
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Originally Posted by marco_gea View Post
Very cool! Thanks for posting this.
Do you have any other similarly-themed articles that you could share?
Cheers,
Marco
You're welcome!

None come to mind ATM, though might find some interesting reading by Googling Rudy Bozak.

GM
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Old 13th June 2018, 04:05 PM   #28
chris661 is offline chris661  United Kingdom
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GM View Post
We'll have to agree to disagree assuming you're not using a compressor or similar to severely limit power hungry transients/sub harmonics [IIRC a kit drum's is around 8 Hz], a standard practice in prosound for as long as I can remember. FWIW, just now saw someone else that claims his huge horn system with a massive sub system can only do a drum kit at near live levels in his room: best 18' drivers that can go flat 20Hz

For sure! My '50s era Altecs and similar vintage high performance prosound drivers up into the early '70s will self destruct if driven much beyond their low power ratings due to the VC glues, coatings can't handle much VC heat rise, hence the need for extremely efficient systems.

Basic driver design hasn't hardly changed since the 1920s, but manufacturing, materials, etc., technology is light years ahead, resulting in power handling capability the pioneers probably never even dreamed of.

GM
Hey GM,

No compression or anything like that. Just a system that's capable of 141dB peaks when tickling the limiters, although I am limited to around 38Hz at the bottom end. After putting a load of mics on a drum kit, I find I can push the faders up well past the volume of the drum kit itself.
I've got a frequency spectrum of a close-mic'd kick drum that shows 16Hz was only a few dB behind 32Hz, although given that a kick drum is a dipole at low frequencies, I don't think much of that very-low-frequency content gets transmitted to the outside world.

Whether or not we should ever try to reproduce a drum kit in a domestic space is another discussion...

Chris
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Old 13th June 2018, 09:53 PM   #29
Pano is offline Pano  United States
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Is there such a thing as too big?
GM, thanks for the Hilliard cover and article. That's a dream living room system, to be sure. Clever stuff - I want one!
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Old 14th June 2018, 12:55 AM   #30
etalon90 is offline etalon90  Canada
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Originally Posted by GM View Post
Agreed, my post wasn't about space savings/efficiency, just I found I preferred the more 'open' sound of a large horn size flat baffle loading the drivers in a corner horn configuration over the corner loaded compression horns.

If I could afford to build a whole new system it would have [8] HE 15"/channel to get efficiency up 'close enough' to the HF horns.

GM

This is the dilemma I'm currently in. (~55-500hz range)

I have a dual 15" mid bass system. It's fine , quite good but not great by my standard.


A-
wondering about quad 15" or even quad 18"
hence the reason I've posted the picture of the 8x 15" per side
if selected, it would be modular build.

B-
on the other side, I wonder if a front mid-bass horn would do better
Like the Inlow dual 18" or maybe a dual 15" horn.
JBL 2240 60hz midbass horn - The Paper Horn by Inlow Sound

never heard either implementation and I read opinions from people whom I respect. (some tried/experienced both)
it's about 50/50 split...

not cheap to build both... and hard to re-sell.
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