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Old 13th June 2018, 12:27 AM   #31
etalon90 is offline etalon90  Canada
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WOW Diogenes,

quite the extensive reply on the bass audibility
the vibration perceived from the body, everybody know this intuitively but the ear PVL, I never knew about that aspect. This is gold, will research more on this.

I know that probably 95% of people claim that bass below (25-35hz being the common answer) ain't important, those peoples always happen to have a system that barely do 35hz flat and never experienced or shown an interest in digging deeper... they are just happy to "presume they know"

Ignorance is bliss and I just do not have energy to convert them one by one with long post and argument.

I had a few people that came to my room,and smiled at my claim of being flat down to 7hz. (calibrated microphone confirmed)
they usually tell me that I'm wasting money on driver/amp for nothing.
Being 100% active with DSP, I can test them and put a "brickwall" filter at any point of their choosing.
they usually pick somewhere between 25-32hz to insert the brickwall.

they listen to whatever they want to for a while.
--->when I remove the brick wall, their face change... "they suddenly see the light"

Love this, love it, love it, love it.
Thanks you very much for your unscientific opinion about bass, your face at the end of this "test", you just made my day


-----------------------------------------

To go back on the OP question.
few subwoofer will do 20hz cleanly.
most 12,15 or 18 size are optimized for higher frequency.
it is a tradeoff between playing very low and being able to play high (for a sub).

A 20hz capable woofer will have require a strong magnet, need good excursion and have an low fs. (usually, 18-21hz resonant frequency, 25hz and above FS won't work very well, 30hz FS, just forget it)
Unfortunately, this also mean an heavy cone, limited sensitivity and high voice coil inductance.
those required parameter also limit subwoofer output to less than 100hz. (if you're lucky)

in the 12", the classic perless XXls come to mind first.
they can go up to roughly 70hz
SBA does their equivalent in the SB34xxx series.
SBA also have a 15: version that would work.

10", I would just not even bother. they are too much SPL limited.
you would need 15 of them... (bass array maybe)

I use Mach 5 IXL 18" myself.
being 18", they move a lot of air but they can't do much more than 60hz
I use mine 7-45hz but I also use 6 of them as a single one can't do much output at 7hz without distorting like crazy... (shopping for another pair too)

If you where hoping for a 20-500hz capable subwoofer, I do not know any that does it great. Nor I think physic would allow such feat.
The Scan Speak 32W revelator serie will come close but they break up hard at ~800hz and I would limit them to 350hz, they also cost quite a bit.
pushing them down to 25hz and below ain't a good idea, I know, I owned a pair... and sold them.
28-30hz is ideal for them IMHO.

Good luck.
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Old 13th June 2018, 03:16 AM   #32
hottattoo is offline hottattoo  United States
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My subwoofer dilemma and solution.

i have a medium size room that is 16.5' wide x 25' long with 10' ceiling height. I have a 4 way horn system consisting of Classic Audio 2" exit field coil drivers (beryllium pgrams) in 26 " Sierrra Brooks solid mahogany tractrix horns for low mids, custom field coil driver (Jeffrey Jackson) with JBL beryllium 3" pgrams on a 13" wood tractrix horn for upper midrange and TAD ET-703 tweeters. The midbass uses a pair of Altec 515b's in parallel per channel in a straight 70Hz. Hypex horn designed by Dr. Bruce Edgar and built by me.

In my room, the response of the mid bass horn was flat from 58hz to 400Hz. This system gives about 108 db for 1 watt power. Finding the "best" subwoofer of reasonable size that would blend well and keep up with the horns was a real challenge !!!! I tried pair of Aura 1808's in a large vented enclosure--sounded slow and not well defined in the below 30hz. range. I tried 2 pairs of Adire Tumult 15' drivers in both sealed / DSP and vented enclosures----sounded very good but still thought better could still be had. The cats meow turned out to be a pair per channel of TC Sounds LMS 5400's 18" drivers ( 80+ lbs. each ) 30+mm of Xmax in dual opposed sealed 9.5 cu ft. enclosure, heavily braced with 3" thick baltic birch front and rear baffle and 2.25" sides, top and bottom.

I used a pair of Crown I-Tech 5000 HD amps strapped to mono for power (3000+ watts on tap per sub). These Crown amps have a damping factor of 2000+ for absolute control of the aluminum diaphragms. These amps also have built in crossovers, DSP and dozens of other functions for pro audio use. The crossovers were set to 60hz. and roll off at 48db per octave. To say these subs are awesome IMHO is an understatement. The subs were eq'd flat from 12hz to 60hz and 100++db at 12hz--and CLEAN. This system can reproduce a nearly live drum kit in my room !! These subs match the horns, are extremely articulate, low distortion, and POWERFUL beyond words. My friend and I actually got "sick" while setting the low eq frequencies !! The cones only move about 18 to 20mm at insane (DANGEROUS) power levels. Just make sure any dental work is securely fastened !!!

The quality of your subwoofers DOES matter in the 30hz to 60hz range---more than most people think !!! I was very sad when I heard from Parts Express that TC Sounds was out of business. These are the best subs I have ever heard. I don't know if a better sub driver exists today. This subwoofer solution was very expensive but worth every penny to me. Good luck to those seeking the ultimate subwoofers !!
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Old 13th June 2018, 06:33 AM   #33
Juhazi is online now Juhazi  Finland
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I have only two Seas LROY26 10" sealed woofers in my 30m2 living room and they are just fine. When they start cloncking I get some 110dB at 2OHz at spot. Enough for me, my typical listening level is below 90dB peak. Still, more Sd would be better for sure.
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Old 13th June 2018, 06:39 AM   #34
KaffiMann is online now KaffiMann  Norway
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etalon90: It's not that stuff below 25-35hz is not important, there is most certainly a benefit from getting bass below these frequencies. But like with everything else for us with the "audio upgrade frenzy", be certain that you will actually gain something from delving deeper. Which is why I suggested actually analyzing the specific individuals music collection first, to get an idea of the potential benefit.

Just generalizing here, so there will be room for the ocassional oddball exception: House music does not gain anything from below 35hz. Rock/metal does not gain anything from below 35hz, maybe except a few live albums, or some studios that have no hp on the kick, then again other rock/metal recordings have little under 60hz even. Drum'n'bass, there are some very few that have good output to 30hz, but not many. There are some electronica genres that focus heavily on very low frequency sound, but I am seriously questioning the intent of this, is it really motivated from the urge to see speaker cones flap around? Not saying it's of no benefit, just questioning the intent behind the music.

The biggest benefit I've seen is with: Well done but rather basic setup jazz recordings. Full classical orchestra. Pipe organs. Piano. NOT from the sounds the instruments make, but it adds realism because you get a very profound sense of the SPACE.

Other than that, there is a number of recordings where vocalist technique can be very annoying, like when they say the letter "p" directly into the diaphragm of the microphone. Or just plain breathing into it. We all make mistakes, but this is not a problem on small speakers.

Last edited by KaffiMann; 13th June 2018 at 06:43 AM.
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Old 13th June 2018, 10:04 AM   #35
Best Hi End is offline Best Hi End
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Thanks guys for all the responses-it was illuminating but a bit confusing.I realize the PA460 can't give me what I want unless I make it work very hard through the active DSP and with distortion as well as the need for a huge box-260liter which I'm not keen on !

The UM18-22 is capable of going down to 20Hz ,but needs a very powerfull amp due to it's lack of efficiency and has some distortions .It's also quite competitive to SI 18HT and TC Sounds LMS-5400 which both models are not manufactured anymore(the latter brand is out of business at all) My wish is to use an internal tube amp class A but such an amp with 500w-1000watts might cost me arm and leg ,unless there are some Kits for sale that can deliver it at reasonable price accordingly-I'm clueless about it and appreciate any advice.

Furthermore,I prefer a reputable 18' or 15' driver from well known brand ,regardless the price,provided it corresponds the data and performance I'm looking for in such a driver.It must have a tight clean bass without any distortion through all it's frequency range from 20Hz and up with very good BMX and Fs and excellent Fs inside the box which must be not too big since the designated wall is 3.5meter with 2.7meter ceiling .

Any advice would be highly appreciated.
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Old 13th June 2018, 05:02 PM   #36
DougL is offline DougL  United States
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What about looking at an Infinite Baffle?
IB18HT - Home Theater Infinite Baffle Woofer - Subwoofer
4 (or 8 ) of these might rock your world.
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Old 13th June 2018, 10:10 PM   #37
Best Hi End is offline Best Hi End
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I must admit that I don't fully understand the difference between infinite baffle and sealed enclosure and pro's and con's of each one in comparison to the other.Regarding the AESpeakers you recommended-it's Xmax and efficiency are not to die for and it's frequency range is obscured like many speakers of this brand.
If I had a plan/sketch of some nice conical/exponential horns out ofwhich I could place the subwoofer driver with it-I'd do it instantly without any hesitation and would be grateful if someone could send me such a plan. The Mach 5 audio driver seems very capable driver ,although I've never heard it nor know it's cost.
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Old 13th June 2018, 10:20 PM   #38
scholl is offline scholl  United States
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I use the AE TD15S in 170lt 30hz BR and get a nice 24hz in room. I don't know what music or loudness you like but a 250watt SAE amp with heavy metal is too loud. The 15S would like a bigger box yet.

Depending on how high you like, one of the Faital pro 1.4 drivers with Eighteensound 1.4 horn crossed at 700hz would work very well and be simple but not cheap. Add a ribbon above for a nice three way and you may be done. I know I am. LOL

I like bass that doesn't need a sub. Makes the design much easier.
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Old 13th June 2018, 11:31 PM   #39
Pano is offline Pano  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by etalon90 View Post
Ignorance is bliss and I just do not have energy to convert them one by one with long post and argument.
Arrogance is also bliss, apparently.
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Old 13th June 2018, 11:39 PM   #40
mark100 is offline mark100  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by etalon90 View Post

Being 100% active with DSP, I can test them and put a "brickwall" filter at any point of their choosing.
they usually pick somewhere between 25-32hz to insert the brickwall.
Hi, what kind of DSP lets you put a brickwall down that low?

Thx, mark
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