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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

Smallest Footprint Horn and Driver that can reach 500hz
Smallest Footprint Horn and Driver that can reach 500hz
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Old 16th April 2018, 02:32 AM   #1
hornwannabe is offline hornwannabe  Philippines
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Default Smallest Footprint Horn and Driver that can reach 500hz

Hi guys!

Any ideas on the smallest footprint Horn and Driver combo that can go down to 500hz?

Listening room is only 9ft x 9ft (hence I need something compact) so I think I can get away with crossing a compression driver (or fullranger) lower to meet a 12" woofer.

Will be using a minidsp for crossover duties and eq to tame the driver and horn.

I live in Southeast Asia and the only direct couriers we have are in the USA. I dont know if horns.pl or stereo-lab.de can ship affordably to asia. So a US supplier would be ideal.

Thanks
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Old 16th April 2018, 07:57 AM   #2
TBTL is offline TBTL  Germany
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Why would you like to build a horn? What is it that you are after, efficiency, pattern control, horn sound, high SPL capability, ...?

For a horn with 90 degree horizontal dispersion, a crossover frequency of only about 1 kHz is required to match directivity with a 12" woofer. Search for 'Econowave'. A 1" compression driver can handle that (meaning that it's high frequency performance still is OK; larger drivers do not perform that well at > 10 kHz), though it cannot go down to 500 Hz.

A horn that maintains 90 degree dispersion down to 500 Hz would need to be over half a metre wide, that's physics unfortunately. If you can make it flush with the corners of the room, it does not need to have a size because the walls will take care of the directivity.

Also check out the 'Small Syns' thread: Small Syns

Last edited by TBTL; 16th April 2018 at 08:07 AM.
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Old 16th April 2018, 08:28 AM   #3
planet10 is offline planet10  Canada
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Smallest Footprint Horn and Driver that can reach 500hz
The general rule-of-thumb is that the perimetre of the horn mouth should be at least a wavelength of the lowest fequency you want to reproduce. Length will depend on the flare.

You aren’t going to be able to fit a 500 Hz horn into a room that small and get a far enuff listening deistance for it to even work.

dave
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Old 16th April 2018, 11:24 AM   #4
oohms is offline oohms  Australia
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Something like this?
11" x 17" ABS 2" Bolt-On Long Throw Horn 90deg x 40deg For Many 2" Exit Driver 647356202421 | eBay

500hz is low for a horn, so if you're crossing to a 12" woofer with a minidsp you might want to consider a higher crossover point - you could then buy a smaller horn
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Old 16th April 2018, 12:14 PM   #5
EarlK is offline EarlK  Canada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hornwannabe View Post
Hi guys!

Any ideas on the smallest footprint Horn and Driver combo that can go down to 500hz?

Listening room is only 9ft x 9ft (hence I need something compact) so I think I can get away with crossing a compression driver (or fullranger) lower to meet a 12" woofer.

Will be using a minidsp for crossover duties and eq to tame the driver and horn.

I live in Southeast Asia and the only direct couriers we have are in the USA. I dont know if horns.pl or stereo-lab.de can ship affordably to asia. So a US supplier would be ideal.

Thanks
An older generation ( 1" exit / 44mm diaphragm ) will get you pretty close ( to your low X-over point ) when working through a large enough BiRadial horn.

"Older Gen." will usually translate into a Lansing company product ( JBL & sometimes Altec ) where historically the Fs of small format drivers were low and down around 600hz ( & max UHF is 15-16K ).

Here's a trace of a JBL 2427H on an Altec 811 sized BiRadial sold by ZXPC ( in Florida ).

JBL2427H_ZXPC_Horn.png

This horn needs about 1/2 lb of mastic/plumbers putty added inside it smoothed around the throat entrance area, to fix the egregiously lousy stock expansion curves ( IMO, the horn is useless without this treatment ).

Here's another ancient trace of mine showing a 2427h on an Emilar Radial ( which is slightly smaller than the ZXPC.

JBL2427H_Emilar_Horn.png

HERE's the horn link!

& here's what it looks like.

Click the image to open in full size.Click the image to open in full size.

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Old 16th April 2018, 01:50 PM   #6
Ivo is offline Ivo  Netherlands
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A cone driver goes down further in a smaller footprint (usually a shorter horn), but cone drivers sound and behave different from compression drivers. What is most important to you? Dispersion characteristics? Dynamics?
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Old 16th April 2018, 02:28 PM   #7
Cask05 is offline Cask05  United States
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Here is a small horn that can hold its polars down to 500 Hz...the Klipsch K-510 horn in the top of a modified La Scala industrial (split):

EA0512FF-E7E6-4F68-8E73-FAF571ED2118.jpeg

...and the vertical polars for that horn and compression driver (...measured polars, not calculated--as is shown in the title):

96782B32-0B80-40D6-AC33-AF61957E3E2A.png
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Old 16th April 2018, 07:45 PM   #8
Patrick Bateman is offline Patrick Bateman  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EarlK View Post
An older generation ( 1" exit / 44mm diaphragm ) will get you pretty close ( to your low X-over point ) when working through a large enough BiRadial horn. <snip>
I found the same issue with that horn.

Here's some measurements I made here: Edge of No Control

Personally, I prefer the square one that Pyle sells, model "PH12S"

But the JBL PT waveguides work even better. Admittedly, they don't "load" as low as the horns do.
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Old 16th April 2018, 07:52 PM   #9
Patrick Bateman is offline Patrick Bateman  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hornwannabe View Post
Hi guys!

Any ideas on the smallest footprint Horn and Driver combo that can go down to 500hz?

Listening room is only 9ft x 9ft (hence I need something compact) so I think I can get away with crossing a compression driver (or fullranger) lower to meet a 12" woofer.

Will be using a minidsp for crossover duties and eq to tame the driver and horn.

I live in Southeast Asia and the only direct couriers we have are in the USA. I dont know if horns.pl or stereo-lab.de can ship affordably to asia. So a US supplier would be ideal.

Thanks
I've posted zillions and zillions of Unity horn projects, and it's largely because what you're chasing after is virtually impossible.

There are a hundred compression drivers that can play 1khz-16khz on a waveguide or horn. There are a handful that can play 1khz-20khz on a waveguide or horn. There are very very few that can do 700hz - 20khz and they're REALLY expensive. For instance, a TAD 2001 can do it, and they're about $2000 a pair.

It's fairly trivial to make a Unity horn than can do 350Hz - 20Khz on a single horn, and that's probably the reason that Unity horns are on the front page of diyaudio every single month.

Horn aren't like regular speakers. You basically have two things that are at odds with each other, and those things make it exceptionally difficult to get wide bandwith out of a front loaded horn. Basically you need a very small throat to get the horn to play up to 20khz. And you also need a small throat to achieve a wide beamwidth. But at the same time, you need a BIG throat to play low. If you want to play down to 500Hz, you're going to need a throat that's fairly large. (If the throat is too small, you get compression, and that creates distortion.)

Unity horn solves all this nicely. It's basically two horns stacked on top of each other. A small one for the highs and a big one for the mids.
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Old 16th April 2018, 10:44 PM   #10
Cask05 is offline Cask05  United States
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It's quite easy: simply use a 2" compression driver...

Here's another example...a Cornscala Style D: Faital Pro LTH142 Horn with HF200 series compression driver in a bass reflex cabinet with 15" woofer.

You could easily shrink that down to a Klipsch Heresy size using 12" closed box air-suspension woofer. Would sound pretty good. Crites sells a CW1228 woofer with about the same T/S parameters as the K-22 in a Klipsch Heresy.

Chris

Last edited by Cask05; 16th April 2018 at 10:49 PM.
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