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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

Smallest Footprint Horn and Driver that can reach 500hz
Smallest Footprint Horn and Driver that can reach 500hz
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Old 16th April 2018, 11:42 PM   #11
Cask05 is offline Cask05  United States
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Here's a better link to that CornScala D page:

Cornscala Style D | Critesspeakers.com

Bob is advertising that he's crossing at 500 Hz in a two-way configuration using a 1.4 inch compression driver (Faital Pro HF140).

Chris
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Old 16th April 2018, 11:57 PM   #12
Patrick Bateman is offline Patrick Bateman  United States
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Part of the 'barrier to entry' with the Unity horns is that you have to be fairly adept at woodworking, 3d printing, or both. Until Parts Express or diysoundgroup starts selling a Unity horn, that will be the case. (The patent is expired, so there's nothing stopping them from selling one, just as they did with the AMT ribbons when THAT patent expired.)

In the meantime, it might be worthwhile to come up with a design that could be mated to a 2" horn.

post-42414-0-12680000-1463713236.jpg

For instance, this ZXPC horn is big enough to control directivity down to 700Hz, and it will load down even further. One could 3D print the first 4" or so, and then mate it to this waveguide. Basically the first 4" of the horn would be the "Unity" part and the rest would be a plain ol' waveguide.

This would simplify things for a DIYer quite a bit.
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Old 17th April 2018, 12:25 AM   #13
Cask05 is offline Cask05  United States
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A slightly larger modified tractrix horn, intermediate between the K-510 and the K-402 would be ideal for a two-way MEH/unity horn for such small spaces. What a lot of people don't see is that these two horns (the 402 and 510) hold their polars to at least an octave below the "mouth circumference frequency" that's being bandied about. In the case oft he K-510, it's more like two octaves below that rule-of-thumb frequency. The K-510 is smaller than the two horns shown above.

That's why I asked questions in a full-range MEH kit thread. For those folks that can take a La Scala-sized full range MEH, the K-402 makes the most sense. For those in really small listening rooms, the intermediate size horn makes the most sense...in a full-range MEH. There are some definite advantages in a full range MEH approach. But you first need the horn(s) to do it. (That's what I'm currently working on.)

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Old 17th April 2018, 01:05 AM   #14
hollowboy is offline hollowboy  Australia
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OP: I see you are new. nice profile pic

Have you done speaker builds before?

Have you got a plan for measurement and eq?

Does your living situation allow odd configurations, like mounting the system in upper corners of the room (so that 'footprint' becomes irrelevant)?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Bateman View Post
There are a hundred compression drivers that can play 1khz-16khz on a waveguide or horn.
[...]
Unity horn solves all this nicely. It's basically two horns stacked on top of each other. A small one for the highs and a big one for the mids.
A unity build may be jumping a bit too far in, if the OP isn't an experienced builder

Another solution: don't use a compression driver. The OP specifically mentioned using a fullranger as an option.

In a 9' by 9' room, SPL requirements are probably low, so a small driver (Fountek / SB Acoustics / Peerless etc) + the horn you show in post 12 could do the job nicely.

I've just taken delivery of some new drivers, so soon I'll be doing exactly that, with that horn.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Bateman View Post
One could 3D print the first 4" or so, and then mate it to this waveguide. Basically the first 4" of the horn would be the "Unity" part and the rest would be a plain ol' waveguide.

This would simplify things for a DIYer quite a bit.
Great plan! Please do it
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Last edited by hollowboy; 17th April 2018 at 01:06 AM. Reason: speeling mistake
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Old 17th April 2018, 02:48 AM   #15
afa is offline afa  Australia
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Hi, I did a cheaper version of this, YouTube but using a different horn, Horn Flare Large Format 2" Throat 4 Bolt Mount you need to make a small little mating flange to connect the peerless driver to the horn to get a better/smoother transition and using some eq to boost the top end and cut down the mid and you get reasonably smooth response down to 400Hz .
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Old 18th April 2018, 12:35 AM   #16
Soldermizer is offline Soldermizer  United States
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Pimping my own solution: a ready-made Unity horn. This is a great solution for the mechanically inept, as I am There are a few models, the only one I am familiar with is the Yorkville U15.
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Old 19th April 2018, 02:58 AM   #17
hollowboy is offline hollowboy  Australia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by afa View Post
Hi, I did a cheaper version of this [...] using a different horn, Horn Flare Large Format 2" Throat 4 Bolt Mount
That looks like a good horn. Very DIY friendly with the ~flat sides and front.

Quote:
Originally Posted by afa View Post
you need to make a small little mating flange to connect the peerless driver to the horn to get a better/smoother transition and using some eq to boost the top end and cut down the mid and you get reasonably smooth response down to 400Hz .
I tried the NE65W-04, just using a brace & a chunk of foam to press the driver against the horn throat. It is not a perfect fit (the throat is a trifle larger than the moving area), but it worked nicely.

The pic = full space response without eq (just a 200Hz high pass), measured 50cm from horn mouth. Nothing clever done (no windowing, not calibrated with SPL meter, mic positioned on reflective object), but it still shows very smooth horn gain that will be easy to eq flat.
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Old 19th April 2018, 03:47 PM   #18
Cask05 is offline Cask05  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hornwannabe View Post
Hi guys! Any ideas on the smallest footprint Horn and Driver combo that can go down to 500h? Listening room is only 9ft x 9ft (hence I need something compact) so I think I can get away with crossing a compression driver (or fullranger) lower to meet a 12" woofe[r].

Will be using a minidsp for crossover duties and eq to tame the driver and horn.

I live in Southeast Asia and the only direct couriers we have are in the USA. I don't know if horns.pl or stereo-lab.de can ship affordably to asia. So a US supplier would be ideal.
To follow up: it's clear that the 500 Hz to ~20 kHz band is easily covered using one horn and one driver...notably a 1.4 inch to 2 inch throat diameter compression driver. You can also look at using dual-diaphragm compression drivers (BMS makes them, among perhaps others) in this regime to reduce any existing angst about using single driver full bandwidth.

The reason for posting on the K-510 horn is that it has posted polars that are outstanding relative to other horns in this size class, and it is a very small horn physically to meet the stated requirement-15" width x 9" height x 4.75" deep (38wx10x12 cm). You also stated that you're planning to use miniDSP to perhaps cross and flatten the frequency response due to the constant coverage nature of the horn. This horn is unlike any others that I've seen or personally measured in terms of its performance. This is a significant performance advantage.

This K-510 horn is available with compression driver attached from Klipsch in Hope, AR. There may be others available used (horns only)--as I bought my K-510 pair. I have used these horns on top of Belle Klipsch bass bins, both in two-way bi-amped and three way tri-amped configurations.

Chris
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Old 19th April 2018, 05:44 PM   #19
multisync is offline multisync  Canada
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see if you can find an Electro Voice DH1506 driver and Electro Voice HR90 horn. You will need some eq.
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Old 19th April 2018, 05:57 PM   #20
Jack Arnott is offline Jack Arnott  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Bateman View Post
Basically you need a very small throat to get the horn to play up to 20khz. And you also need a small throat to achieve a wide beamwidth. But at the same time, you need a BIG throat to play low. If you want to play down to 500Hz, you're going to need a throat that's fairly large. (If the throat is too small, you get compression, and that creates distortion.)
I am in disagreement with you here. (And this concerns me, as I come here to read your posts. Perhaps I am not picking up what you are putting down.)

First the play down to 500hz portion:

Lets look at the aforementioned BMS coaxial compression drivers. Both the 1.4" and 2" play easily down to 300hz. The 1.4 is no more adverse to the lower frequency response than the 2.0. This is because they both have the same diaphragm, and same exit from that diaphragm, and the same dimensions inside the driver where the diaphragm exits. The only difference is that the body of the 1.4" exit is truncated, as it does not need as much distance to open to 1.4", and the larger exit driver needs to open to 2.0". There is no compression in the exit, only expansion from the moment it exits into the throat of the driver, and the compression (in the compression portion of the compression driver) is in the diaphragm to exit portion, and is constant, from 300hz to 22khz. Are you speaking of compression in the horn, not in the driver? If so, how would compression in the horn be different at 500hz than at 20khz?

Next the play up to 20K portion:

The horn does not need to be any size to play up to 20K. 20K is already propagated when the signal leaves the driver. The smaller the exit the less that 20K will be bouncing around in there, and as you mentioned, the smaller the exit the better the sound will disperse.

I think that the BMS 1.4" coaxial on a RCF HF950, or an 18 Sound XT464 should be a good solution, and would crossover down to 600hz, maybe 500hz depending on the baffle that is used for the horn.

I am not sure what horn would be used to get to 500hz, or if directivity is needed on the horn at that frequency in that room.

Last edited by Jack Arnott; 19th April 2018 at 06:06 PM.
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