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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

Smallest Footprint Horn and Driver that can reach 500hz
Smallest Footprint Horn and Driver that can reach 500hz
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Old 18th June 2018, 09:44 PM   #131
tubesguy is offline tubesguy  United States
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Originally Posted by hornwannabe View Post
Hey Guys got some bad news.

I got scammed by the ones selling the Klipsch K510 horns.
That is bad news, but I will say that I was somewhat surprised by the apparent ease with which you had found some. I've been looking, and they are hard to find used.

That said, if you comb the Klipsch forum, you are likely to find at least a couple of sources, from professional, and authorized, sellers.
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Old 19th June 2018, 05:44 PM   #132
Cask05 is offline Cask05  United States
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Originally Posted by hollowboy View Post
The first image seems like a good, practical, configuration for a small room - lots of horn mouth, without taking up much floor area...Corner Horn Imaging FAQ
You're one of the very few that have recognized and mentioned this capability. I believe that a lot of people fail to see that:
1) loudspeakers that are high performing are usually quite large, and

2) floor space (i.e., loudspeaker effective depth including spacing from wall, if any) is a big deal--a much bigger deal than the size of their horn mouths.
Their horn mouths can be covered in grill cloth if you don't like looking at horns, and effectively be much smaller in terms of total room volume demands.

By the way, a link to the polar sonograms of the horn that I believe you mentioned above: Heritage Klipsch - that big "theater" sound and "HOM" ? - Technical/Modifications - The Klipsch Audio Community

And a link to the polar sonograms of the K-510 horn: PA speakers for home use - Page 4 - Home Theater - The Klipsch Audio Community

Note that the polar sonograms aren't the only part of the story that's important. Having straight-sided horn walls near the throat (like the K-510 and K-402 have) also affects their subjective sound quality quite strongly.

Chris
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Old 19th June 2018, 10:02 PM   #133
hollowboy is offline hollowboy  Australia
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Originally Posted by Cask05 View Post
floor space (i.e., loudspeaker effective depth including spacing from wall, if any) is a big deal--a much bigger deal than the size of their horn mouths.
Yea. I remember seeing pix of the (large and visually powerful) Jadis Eurithmie, years ago, and thinking that, if placed in room corners, it would actually be more space efficient than a polite little stand-mounted speaker.

Earlier this week, I took some photos of an acoustic ceiling (attached), thinking that a soffit mounted horn could be made in this style:

- visually mild
- off the floor

I just looked Jadis up again, to discover that's almost exactly what the designer's home system looks like.

BIG ol' horns! | Stereophile.com

Something built along those lines, if tilted to fit into the intersection between walls and ceiling, could be rather large, yet take up zero floor space.
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File Type: jpg ceiling2.jpg (126.3 KB, 134 views)
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Old 19th June 2018, 11:49 PM   #134
hollowboy is offline hollowboy  Australia
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Originally Posted by Cask05 View Post
Anything above 7-8 kHz is controlled by the compression driver phase plug. I thought that was "common knowledge"...Perhaps it isn't.
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Originally Posted by Cask05 View Post
By the way, a link to the polar sonograms of the horn that I believe you mentioned above
The measurements linked use the same K-69-A driver driver, and should measure the same above 7-8kHz. Do you know why your plots look different above 7-8kHz (was it different amounts of HF boost)?

The description in the link:
"a very good horn that's also very inexpensive and that tests very well in terms of its polars relative to the K-510"
...is a reversal of what you said about that horn in April, e.g.

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Originally Posted by Cask05 View Post
I'd use it only if lowest price is the requirement...

The smaller horn is the K-510, which has much better performance in terms of polar control
I'm glad to see this reversal.

- having measurements that confirm a cheap option being similar to the expensive / unobtanium option is a win for budget DIY.
- that you are willing to flip your opinion based on the data says good things about your intellectual rigour.
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Old 20th June 2018, 01:18 AM   #135
Cask05 is offline Cask05  United States
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Except that I have heard this horn (the inexpensive one) against the K-510. I'd still choose the K-510. There is a subjective listening difference after EQing flat and using the same driver, etc. The polars that I measured don't show you all the differences.

I suspect it's related to curved side walls near the throat vs. straight walls, and perhaps the mouth flares that are subtly different (although they both appear to have tractrix or truncated tractrix profiles).

Chris
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Old 20th June 2018, 02:57 AM   #136
hollowboy is offline hollowboy  Australia
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There is a subjective listening difference after EQing flat and using the same driver, etc.
That was the question you skipped over.

The plots you have linked do not appear to have had the same EQ.

You said yourself that the horn does nothing over 7-8kHz, so everything to the right of the line should have been exactly the same.

The much hotter & more extended HF on one plot could easily explain your subjective preference for that setup.
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Old 20th June 2018, 11:58 AM   #137
Cask05 is offline Cask05  United States
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Originally Posted by hollowboy View Post
You said yourself that the horn does nothing over 7-8kHz, so everything to the right of the line should have been exactly the same.
Perhaps this is a good time for discussing the limitations of polar sonograms and in-room measurements. First, I'll give you the bottom line: the data above 8 kHz is essentially the same for both plots.

But the color representations are different based on the setting of the "zero dB" for each plot. I chose these plots (EQ as flat as practical, with slight undulations--which are visible across the polar sections) based on the visibility of their details. OmniMic doesn't provide the capability of choosing a zero offset in the polar plot color scale so that you can attempt to show relative increases in SPL at small offset angles in the band 5-14 kHz.

I don't believe that adding that capability (zero dB offset to the color scale) to OmniMic is going to solve the problem of showing the relative increases in SPL off-axis in the polar sonogram plots. I ran normalized data through OmniMic, but the results actually got worse (to my eyes) than to show the raw data, EQed as flat as possible. It's also a lot more "real world" in that normalized plot data isn't really representative of what you're actually going to achieve from the horn/compression driver combination.

With both horns, the places where these local increases of SPL (relative to on-axis) at 10-20 degrees offset is a little different, but essentially within measurement accuracy in-room. (I also see a lot of polar sonograms that have been smoothed too much, thus hiding the local maxima in SPL near the zero-degree on-axis measurement.)

Here's how I read at these polar sonograms:

1) I look at the color associated with the zero-degree (on-axis) measurements, then I go to the right-hand color scale to find what relative dB level that corresponds to.

2) Then I move down the color scale by 6 dB and read the "coverage angle" envelope from that color contour.

3) I look around the -6 dB contour for relative changes in steepness of the color changes with off-axis angle to see how the horn/driver behave, and make a mental note of how that contour changes with frequency.

4) If I look at another polar sonogram of another horn or driver, I make mental notes of the approximate coverage angles and how they change by reading the off-axis angles first, then the relative gradients in color.

Note that the color plots are engaging to look at, but I find that it is easy to misread what you've actually got and try to read more detail than what is actually there. Trying to read increments of 1 dB color changes just isn't within the measurement accuracy of taking these measurements in room. You need an anechoic chamber for that, and I doubt that you're going to see anything worthwhile. YMMV.

Chris
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Old 20th June 2018, 03:24 PM   #138
Cask05 is offline Cask05  United States
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As an example: in the two plots that you reposted above, the first plot of the K-510/K-69-A combination shows that the coverage angle is closer to that defined by the green transition region, while the ebay horn is closer to the orange-to-yellow transition.

Last edited by Cask05; 20th June 2018 at 03:34 PM.
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Old Yesterday, 07:42 AM   #139
hollowboy is offline hollowboy  Australia
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I think I understand you: the 510 plot is cooler on axis, therefore -6dB relative to the axis is also a slightly cooler colour*.

The attached image shows the plots again, this time with my guesstimate of the -6dB contour scribbled on. The coverage angles (marked with arrows) are similar. As expected, the horn with the size advantage keeps control to a slightly lower frequency. The overall shape of the HF spread is similar; both plots show a similar narrowing at ~9kHz, then a widening at 12-13kHz, so I understand why you said this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cask05 View Post
First, I'll give you the bottom line: the data above 8 kHz is essentially the same for both plots.
However, what about the bits that I marked X?

The 510 plot is quieter / cooler on-axis < 7kHz, yet these marked spots bits are much hotter than on the other graph. Doesn't that mean the 510 was set up in such a way that you had more HF above 10kHz? Assuming your hearing extends >10kHz, wouldn't these hot spots skew a subjective comparison?

---

My own interest is general (I like bargains) and specific: I'm giving up my workshop / studio, but moving to a bigger home. I'll have a room with appropriate corners for horns. I'm thinking of reconfiguring my current "long throw" workshop horns for high efficiency / narrow band use in my outdoor (bush) system, and setting up some lower efficiency, "short throw", wide band horns for home (corner?) use.

If I do that, my practical options are either to start with an easily available off the shelf horn, or to build it from scratch (i.e. another Synergy clone, or something like this):
Klipsch K402 replica build - DIY Audio Projects - StereoNET

Getting a Klipsch horn into Australia is not practical.

*like comparing two PET scans with different SUV settings.
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