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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

Miller & Kreisel S-1B satellite crossover update
Miller & Kreisel S-1B satellite crossover update
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Old 13th April 2018, 04:19 PM   #1
kenwood61 is offline kenwood61  United States
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Default Miller & Kreisel S-1B satellite crossover update

I have a mint pair of MK S-1B's that sound great. But I wonder if updating the caps will offer any improvement and figured I would see if anyone here has experience. Mine have the Peerless dome tweeters. I did find another thread on AK where the owner pulled the crossovers. The caps are small and easy to get to, but there were comments about the position of the inductors (there are 4).

What I'm hoping to get is some experienced advice on how to chose caps that will be an improvement. I've seen so many opinions on types of caps that I want to avoid getting into a roller coaster of "rolling" caps until I find the right ones, which would take awhile, but also open up the possibility of reaming the threads on the panel fasteners by repeatedly opening up the speakers.

I'm not looking for esoteric options, but something that is a known quantity.
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Old 13th April 2018, 04:27 PM   #2
eriksquires is offline eriksquires  United States
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I had the version of the S-1B after this, with the rounder faceplates.

Mine had adjustments allowing you to tailor the sound somewhat. As I further recall, after opening one up, there were a lot of caps.

I suggest you put together a schematic with XSim crossover simulator before doing any alterations. It could very well be that a lot of the caps are not going to be used for your particular settings, so altering may be useless.

You also don't have a lot of room to work in there. This is really going to size limit you. You certainly won't have space to replace every cap with a Mundorf Supreme.

Take it apart, put together a schematic, and post pics.

Best,

E
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Old 13th April 2018, 04:36 PM   #3
eriksquires is offline eriksquires  United States
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Found a pic:

Click the image to open in full size.

Those coils are very poorly placed, and the caps are physically tiny. Perhaps you should consider a completely external crossover instead? I would only keep the coils in the original.

Here's a thought, how about replacing the whole thing with a two-channel plate amplifier instead?

Best,

E
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Old 13th April 2018, 04:38 PM   #4
kenwood61 is offline kenwood61  United States
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I'll do that, thanks for the suggestion!

Now that you mention the character contours, I have found the setting that works best, as they sound now. I think that IF I make a change it is in consideration of possible future owners and making changes that keep that adjustment.
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Old 13th April 2018, 04:43 PM   #5
eriksquires is offline eriksquires  United States
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What I meant to say, is those electrolytic caps are going to be a lot smaller than any nice film caps, so replacing them in place will be a challenge.

Among the physically smallest caps I recommend are the Mundorf MKP range. I avoid Solens except in low pass filters where price is a major issue.

An alternative may be to replace the electrolytics with modern versions, and use small value film caps to bypass them.
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Old 13th April 2018, 04:43 PM   #6
kenwood61 is offline kenwood61  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eriksquires View Post
Found a pic:

Those coils are very poorly placed, and the caps are physically tiny. Perhaps you should consider a completely external crossover instead? I would only keep the coils in the original.

Here's a thought, how about replacing the whole thing with a two-channel plate amplifier instead?

Best,

E
You hit on the placement issue I read somewhere else, and that two of the coils should be turned 90 degrees. The caps are small and at that size, I can't imagine having to spend much for good replacements.

As for the two-channel plate amp, the reason I bought these was as a second setup in my main room to use my restored Sansui BA-3000 amp. Right now, I'm going from the amp to a MK V-125 powered sub, then out to the sats. If there is a better way to utilize that amp with both channels, I'll do that.

So here's my dumb question. Aside from cost, which right now, I can't afford to replace with a plate amp ... wouldn't that mean that the BA-3000 is not going to have any sonic effect through the sats?
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Old 13th April 2018, 04:46 PM   #7
kenwood61 is offline kenwood61  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eriksquires View Post
What I meant to say, is those electrolytic caps are going to be a lot smaller than any nice film caps, so replacing them in place will be a challenge.

Among the physically smallest caps I recommend are the Mundorf MKP range. I avoid Solens except in low pass filters where price is a major issue.

An alternative may be to replace the electrolytics with modern versions, and use small value film caps to bypass them.
My source amp (BA-3000) has Mundorf power supply caps (x2) and mostly Nichicon/Elna on all the boards. Not that it matters to use Mundorf caps in the speakers, but it's a brand that I am comfortable with their quality.

Modern versions will be smaller at the same values, but I don't understand speaker design to know if increasing certain values will be advisable.
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Old 13th April 2018, 04:56 PM   #8
eriksquires is offline eriksquires  United States
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Well, you could certainly use Elna bi-polars! Nelson Pass sure likes to use them.

But at their age, you definitely should replace all of them. This is probably the most do-able option.

Ignore my plate-amp thoughts. Far too extravagant.
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Old 13th April 2018, 05:06 PM   #9
kenwood61 is offline kenwood61  United States
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I appreciate thinking out side the box ... or cabinet

I'll replace the caps for sure, but I'm guessing I may need to consider repositioning coils? What about internal wiring? I was looking at Madisound, who sells the Supra speaker wire I like, and they mention using the same wire for crossovers. I don't need to go overboard, but just asking.

During my lunch hour, I'll pull a panel and post pics to see if mine is the same as the pic you shared. I assume it is, but I know some companies made subtle changes to product without telling anyone.

My serial numbers are: 114883 / 114884
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Old 13th April 2018, 05:22 PM   #10
eriksquires is offline eriksquires  United States
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Well, this all depends how far you want to go.

I strongly suggest you map out the schematic first. It is _possible_ that only 2 of those coils are used at a time, so interference may be less severe than we think.

Also, instead of wires, I'd replace those resistors. Mills are smaller, affordable and best sounding.

Best,


E
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