I built a Daline in the 70s and found the configuration to be a reasonable one in that I no difficulties placing them flat against the front wall in a reasonable position. I am surprised it has not been used more often. The SPL of the speaker was limited and it would have benefited significantly from a larger driver than the B110 which is small and with limited excursion. The performance of modern tweeters means this should be straightforward in a modern 2 way design.
Well this is all very informative for me - even though my understanding as a beginner is not perfect I have tried various sealed, front and rear ported speakers and they haven’t worked as well in a near wall arrangement. Whatever it is about the transmission line design it does help. I don’t know what the tuning frequency is of the speakers/room or indeed how to answer this question? Any further tips? I’m facinated by the cardioid speaker idea, but could only attempt this it it was a DIY kit - no way I have the skills to design it myself. I’d like to go three way next time if poss.
I have just looked at the frequency response of a classic BBC speaker (LS3/5a) and it has a broad dip centred around 300 Hz. I cannot really see any appreciable dip at 3k.
I find the considerable dip of 5dB from 3-5k in the IPL FR really unusual. If it sounds good then okay, but it is certainly intriguing.
I find the considerable dip of 5dB from 3-5k in the IPL FR really unusual. If it sounds good then okay, but it is certainly intriguing.
Here is a simulation that shows how the ripple changes in a daline depending on where the driver is placed in relation to the TL-stub, confirming my speculation… Alpair 10.3, no stuffing (so as to exagerate the ripple)/. Thanx to Scott.
dave
Attachments
Correct. Derived from the BBC's acoustic scaling research.
There isn't one in the LS3/5a. As a compact monitor for broadcast vans, this was not desirable.
What is frequently called the 'BBC dip' re output suppression in the ~1.5KHz - 3KHz region was not really used by the BBC very often (hardly ever). It was advocated externally by Harwood, primarily (though not exclusively) to enhance the subjective depth perception on orchestral recordings made with a close mic. position. Exactly how broad a BW this covers & how much suppression is used depends on the speaker & the designer's goals. Harwood suggested -2dB based on research at the BBC; many use more (and many use less). Acoustics isn't always as straightforward as a ruler-flat on axis response.
It could be that my assumption is incorrect, and that it's caused by the room - also if you inverse the polarity of the tweeters (it's biwired so easy to do) the dip at 3kHz increases to close to -10dB. But that only proves that they're wired up with the correct polarity I believe.
Seems that the BBC Dip is around the 3kHz area, not a broad dip centered around 300 Hz as mentioned on a prior comment - which may be for some other reason. The 3kHz dip does aid the spaciousness of sound. B&W 802D's apparently have this same dip, as do many other brands of speaker.
Hmm, I had some time to play with my Sonido horn last weekend. As a fullrange driver, the excess of mids were taken down with DSP similar to the BBC dip.
It actually works, switching back and forth, the perception of depth increases with a "hammock" setting.
Same with when sitting to the left, the right speaker could not be heard, "hammock" made the right speaker detectable...
End of useless subjective rant
Peter
Have been doing some more reading on future builds that work well in small rooms and in near wall placement. The options seem to be as follows:
Linkwitz LX mini, but I would potentially modify the design to incorporate the LX mini into a sonotube subwoofer. I got this idea elsewhere on DIYAudio. I’m trying to get a demo beforehand. Mr. Linkwitz has been trying to solve audio reproduction in typical living spaces his whole working career, and his work seems really impressive. He also has a post of a whole load of other constant directivity designs on his website.
I’m not going down the commercial speaker route - to expensive for me. Larsen speakers are also intended for being placed near a wall.
Audio Note UK also has some nice speakers, designed for near wall placement and the AN-E goes down to 30Hz. You can get DIY kits for them too.
Linkwitz LX mini, but I would potentially modify the design to incorporate the LX mini into a sonotube subwoofer. I got this idea elsewhere on DIYAudio. I’m trying to get a demo beforehand. Mr. Linkwitz has been trying to solve audio reproduction in typical living spaces his whole working career, and his work seems really impressive. He also has a post of a whole load of other constant directivity designs on his website.
I’m not going down the commercial speaker route - to expensive for me. Larsen speakers are also intended for being placed near a wall.
Audio Note UK also has some nice speakers, designed for near wall placement and the AN-E goes down to 30Hz. You can get DIY kits for them too.
I thot i had posted this in this thread, bu ti guess it was elsewhere. An ML-TL specifically designed for near-wall or on-wall placement.
http://wodendesign.com/planset/Poplar-A10x-MLTL-teaser.pdf
dave
http://wodendesign.com/planset/Poplar-A10x-MLTL-teaser.pdf
dave
Cheers Dave - I'm really interested in your design, Wilmslow Audio has some similar designs based on full range drivers as well. Wide baffle has lots of advantages, but might be difficult for me to fit into my living room (that said the AN-E is also quite wide baffle). Personally, I'm trying to move to a three way (full or near full range) design intended for near wall placement as my next goal... which is a challenge.
LXmini with two subs would potentially satisfy this, but as you know from my previous comments I am cautious about using subs following difficult room integration. I think I would probably aim for rolloff at around 30Hz as it seems to be sufficient for me and not excite my room modes. My preference is to modify the LX mini design as hinted at above.
Audio Note AN-E is two way 8" woofer/mid crossed into a tweeter - I do wonder about a potential lack of midrange clout, but worthy of investigation.
If I manage to hear both of these then I'll post up some feedback. I expect significant differences in the sound from these two speakers, LX mini has constant directivity behaviour which should work well in a small room (as intended by Linkwitz).
Here is the link to the other constant directivity designs that the Linkwitz website lists - I think it's pretty comprehensive
Constant directivity loudspeaker designs
LXmini with two subs would potentially satisfy this, but as you know from my previous comments I am cautious about using subs following difficult room integration. I think I would probably aim for rolloff at around 30Hz as it seems to be sufficient for me and not excite my room modes. My preference is to modify the LX mini design as hinted at above.
Audio Note AN-E is two way 8" woofer/mid crossed into a tweeter - I do wonder about a potential lack of midrange clout, but worthy of investigation.
If I manage to hear both of these then I'll post up some feedback. I expect significant differences in the sound from these two speakers, LX mini has constant directivity behaviour which should work well in a small room (as intended by Linkwitz).
Here is the link to the other constant directivity designs that the Linkwitz website lists - I think it's pretty comprehensive
Constant directivity loudspeaker designs
Oh and by means of further follow on my review I have found a 3-way transmission line design the AOS studio 85 transmission line. No idea how it performs as I can't find any reviews, but looks good. As I say, I'm going to test out the Lx Mini and AN-E first, but I have had good success with my existing transmission lines.
Scan-Speak
Of course the larger PMC commercial transmission lines are 3 way - but way expensive!
Scan-Speak
Of course the larger PMC commercial transmission lines are 3 way - but way expensive!
Judging from the design (end-loaded, traditional line configuration, IMF style damping approach etc.) they could be OK; they could probably also be improved upon.
PMCs have a following & there are far worse speakers out there; like the others mentioned though most are moderately resonant QW lines. Not a criticism in itself, but people tend to gravitate toward the term 'Transmission Line' in the belief that it's 'non-resonant' when in fact the majority of pipes so-described actually are -a point easily established by looking at their measured impedance.
PMCs have a following & there are far worse speakers out there; like the others mentioned though most are moderately resonant QW lines. Not a criticism in itself, but people tend to gravitate toward the term 'Transmission Line' in the belief that it's 'non-resonant' when in fact the majority of pipes so-described actually are -a point easily established by looking at their measured impedance.
The Holtz Statement Monitor (3 way vented cabinet with mid driver open back design) has a cross over design that can be switched between near and far wall positions. This is a stand mount but I would expect that the same principals apply to either the Mini Statement (stand mount version) or possibly the Anthology and full Statement which are much larger three way (WMTMW design) speakers.
Statements_Monitor_2
An evolution of the Pro9TL/Webb TL of the ‘70s. I expect that someone familair with modern TL design could easily come up with something closer to optimum.
dave
I just visited Deco Audio in Aylesbury UK who we're very helpful.
I demoed the following against my DIY IPL S2TLK:
- Audio Note AN-J. The speaker is designed to be placed up against the wall and in corners, however the test room at Deco audio was not heavily furnished and as a result under-dampened. The AN-J's were therefore placed slightly out into the room to prevent overloading with bass. I would say that this speaker does improved on the S2TLK in terms of retrieval of detail, and it also manages to deliver a surprising amount of bass given it's design - perhaps due to the larger cone - so much so that I thought the room was slightly overwhelmed by the bass and detracted me from the music. I think this would occur in my own living room as well. I think these could definitely work well for some people, but I don't think I would spend the money to switch away from the S2TLK's with the near wall placement managed by Dirac live - the S2TLK's slightly less analytical nature makes them an easier listen in my opinion and you stop trying to think about all of the information that your ears are being bombarded with from the AN-J's (the S2TLK's strike a better balance for me).
- Russel K Red 120. I am not a fan of this speaker and do not think it represents good value - I could hear it's reflex port and it didn't seem to be a high quality design to me. If you have this amount of money then buy yourself a Spendor or PMC which are superior designs IMO...or go DIY.
- ProARC SM100 - classic studio stand mount. Good speaker, lovely mid range, but just slightly under-extended, which should be expected given it's size. I would enjoy this speaker though and have no other critical points about it.
Please note that for all of the above speakers the soundstage was about the same - no speaker I have heard has ever come close to the Linkwitz LX mini that I demoed at home in this regard. I know that the psychoacoustic effect is an illusion, but it really does make a difference. At this moment in time I would only consider the Linkwitz speakers a worthwhile (and quite substantial) upgrade on my present set up - but only when specified with dipole subs. I think the time alignment and flatter frequency response also help substantially - the Linkwitz speakers sounded vastly more natural than the S2TLK's.
The Linkwitz speakers did work surprisingly well when placed up against a wall, but of course the soundstage flattens out considerably - so really if I was ever to progress with these speakers I'd need to bring them out into the room. Also, I said that one sub never worked in my room and I would never bother with subs again... well a pair of linkwitz dipole subs worked well and did do a good job of evenly pressurising the room. Bass was also substantially more resolving than I have heard from any other combination.
Only Kii Three could better Linkwitz perhaps in a typical living room? Their cardioid dispersion certainly fits the bill for near wall placement as well. I don't know the answer as I've never heard them... nor could I afford them!
I demoed the following against my DIY IPL S2TLK:
- Audio Note AN-J. The speaker is designed to be placed up against the wall and in corners, however the test room at Deco audio was not heavily furnished and as a result under-dampened. The AN-J's were therefore placed slightly out into the room to prevent overloading with bass. I would say that this speaker does improved on the S2TLK in terms of retrieval of detail, and it also manages to deliver a surprising amount of bass given it's design - perhaps due to the larger cone - so much so that I thought the room was slightly overwhelmed by the bass and detracted me from the music. I think this would occur in my own living room as well. I think these could definitely work well for some people, but I don't think I would spend the money to switch away from the S2TLK's with the near wall placement managed by Dirac live - the S2TLK's slightly less analytical nature makes them an easier listen in my opinion and you stop trying to think about all of the information that your ears are being bombarded with from the AN-J's (the S2TLK's strike a better balance for me).
- Russel K Red 120. I am not a fan of this speaker and do not think it represents good value - I could hear it's reflex port and it didn't seem to be a high quality design to me. If you have this amount of money then buy yourself a Spendor or PMC which are superior designs IMO...or go DIY.
- ProARC SM100 - classic studio stand mount. Good speaker, lovely mid range, but just slightly under-extended, which should be expected given it's size. I would enjoy this speaker though and have no other critical points about it.
Please note that for all of the above speakers the soundstage was about the same - no speaker I have heard has ever come close to the Linkwitz LX mini that I demoed at home in this regard. I know that the psychoacoustic effect is an illusion, but it really does make a difference. At this moment in time I would only consider the Linkwitz speakers a worthwhile (and quite substantial) upgrade on my present set up - but only when specified with dipole subs. I think the time alignment and flatter frequency response also help substantially - the Linkwitz speakers sounded vastly more natural than the S2TLK's.
The Linkwitz speakers did work surprisingly well when placed up against a wall, but of course the soundstage flattens out considerably - so really if I was ever to progress with these speakers I'd need to bring them out into the room. Also, I said that one sub never worked in my room and I would never bother with subs again... well a pair of linkwitz dipole subs worked well and did do a good job of evenly pressurising the room. Bass was also substantially more resolving than I have heard from any other combination.
Only Kii Three could better Linkwitz perhaps in a typical living room? Their cardioid dispersion certainly fits the bill for near wall placement as well. I don't know the answer as I've never heard them... nor could I afford them!
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