Execution is important… there are good stamped steel baskets & poor ones...there are good cast aluminum baskets & poor ones… there are good plastic baskets & poor ones…
Of my favourite 3 drivers (FR mid you), 2 have plastic baskets, 1 has stamped steel. Helper woofers, 1 plastic, 2 aluminum.
dave
Of my favourite 3 drivers (FR mid you), 2 have plastic baskets, 1 has stamped steel. Helper woofers, 1 plastic, 2 aluminum.
dave
Okay. I see what you guys are saying. So for my education, would be fair to expect the 6FE200 to be able to perform equally on all levels, with speakers costing up to say, $130 ... like some of these, for example ?
B&C 6PEV13 6-1/2" Midrange Speaker
FaitalPRO W6N8-120 6" Neodymium Professional Midrange 8 Ohm
Or this ... PRV Audio 6MR500-NDY-4 6-1/2" Neodymium Midrange Woofer 4 Ohm
No joke ... I am just wanting to learn. Is it safely expected that quality drivers like these, at these price differences, are going to sound better?
B&C 6PEV13 6-1/2" Midrange Speaker
FaitalPRO W6N8-120 6" Neodymium Professional Midrange 8 Ohm
Or this ... PRV Audio 6MR500-NDY-4 6-1/2" Neodymium Midrange Woofer 4 Ohm
No joke ... I am just wanting to learn. Is it safely expected that quality drivers like these, at these price differences, are going to sound better?
Agree.
@ Flaxxer I think what you should mainly look for (this applies to ANY price category) is the overall amplitude response, the sound pressure level graph a driver is producing. These are mostly found on speaker datasheets - if not, I would avoid those completely 'cause they're hiding something then. But most which have such a curve are using more or less valid data, these are of course smoothed/averaged graphs (you don't see very small peaks/dips) but nevertheless, they tell a lot about a certain driver's characteristics.
PA manufacturers tend to keep themselves more strictly to stated specs while looking at home audio drivers you might see some more deviations in reality (when measuring a driver) against stated specs. But there're also very good ones matching the specs almost exactly.
Faital has a good reputation and I also chose this brand for my project, in worst case we can still sell the midbass drivers but hey, it's PA line and the specs are pretty good.
Back to our SPL analysis: look at the freq. curve of the Faital 6FE200 and now the PRV Audio 6MR500.. or the B&C 6PEV13 midrange.
The Faital has a pretty smooth sound pressure level on most of it's planned used frequency range while the PRV also not bad but begins to have some compromises here and there which might be on a music material still not audible I think. But when I look at this specific B&C's curve I think it's really looking bad: a constantly increasing SPL for the same input voltage which is more of a problem than average nominal sensitivity or anything else.. with a constantly increasing freq. curve you simply have difficulties 'cause in midranges a dB difference of let's say ~5-10dB is really audible (depending on crossover and passband freq. range). Different opinions about the exact value of audible SPL difference within a speaker but this is way too much for everybody to state it's 'flat') .. so .. take a real world example, the greater the increase in SPL curve the greater the perceived loudness of the speaker. And amplitude (simplified to perceived loudness) is the 1st thing our ears are mostly sensitive of.
So in general this B&C could be crossed between .. dunno.. let's say .. ~ 300Hz and 2KHz and already having a general smooth 5dB shift between the two ends in SPL. Just FYI +6 dB is what needs 1/2 power to drive for the same SPL (when speaking in terms of needed amplifier power) and when you drive this midrange with the same constant voltage it's getting louder as frequency rises.. so I think this B&C is only useful when you don't care much about sensitivity and as frequency gets higher the midrange also gets higher.
On a normal music material this still might diminish or we simply don't recognize it and then this midrange can be useful, especially when we count in room reflections etc. But if you're striving for a precise sound and balanced image you might look for other drivers which have a flatter freq. response. Everything else is pretty much "negotiable" like sensitivity, nominal impedance etc. etc. with silver wiring at the (almost) very end of the list if you want to reach the stars, but as a very first most important factor for your ears to satisfy them is the perceived loudness of your drivers (if there're more than a fullrange), nobody wants certain frequencies (especially midrange) to be higher or louder at the same volume setting as a woman sings let's say.
Whatever you choose, PA or home stuff, dirt cheap or expensive like gold, frequency amplitude response should be as flat as possible. Local tiny dips/peaks are okay and mostly inaudible on music material but constantly rising/falling curves on a wider frequency range is audible - and also makes crossover design a pain in the a**.
Final words: whatever you buy, depending what you're going to use them for, it might be great for sharing that with the community here before you buy the "wrong" drivers. Amplitude response is just 1 parameter to watch out for when you're going to design a complete speaker with different drivers and there're many other things to be carefully considered before buying.
@ Flaxxer I think what you should mainly look for (this applies to ANY price category) is the overall amplitude response, the sound pressure level graph a driver is producing. These are mostly found on speaker datasheets - if not, I would avoid those completely 'cause they're hiding something then. But most which have such a curve are using more or less valid data, these are of course smoothed/averaged graphs (you don't see very small peaks/dips) but nevertheless, they tell a lot about a certain driver's characteristics.
PA manufacturers tend to keep themselves more strictly to stated specs while looking at home audio drivers you might see some more deviations in reality (when measuring a driver) against stated specs. But there're also very good ones matching the specs almost exactly.
Faital has a good reputation and I also chose this brand for my project, in worst case we can still sell the midbass drivers but hey, it's PA line and the specs are pretty good.
Back to our SPL analysis: look at the freq. curve of the Faital 6FE200 and now the PRV Audio 6MR500.. or the B&C 6PEV13 midrange.
The Faital has a pretty smooth sound pressure level on most of it's planned used frequency range while the PRV also not bad but begins to have some compromises here and there which might be on a music material still not audible I think. But when I look at this specific B&C's curve I think it's really looking bad: a constantly increasing SPL for the same input voltage which is more of a problem than average nominal sensitivity or anything else.. with a constantly increasing freq. curve you simply have difficulties 'cause in midranges a dB difference of let's say ~5-10dB is really audible (depending on crossover and passband freq. range). Different opinions about the exact value of audible SPL difference within a speaker but this is way too much for everybody to state it's 'flat') .. so .. take a real world example, the greater the increase in SPL curve the greater the perceived loudness of the speaker. And amplitude (simplified to perceived loudness) is the 1st thing our ears are mostly sensitive of.
So in general this B&C could be crossed between .. dunno.. let's say .. ~ 300Hz and 2KHz and already having a general smooth 5dB shift between the two ends in SPL. Just FYI +6 dB is what needs 1/2 power to drive for the same SPL (when speaking in terms of needed amplifier power) and when you drive this midrange with the same constant voltage it's getting louder as frequency rises.. so I think this B&C is only useful when you don't care much about sensitivity and as frequency gets higher the midrange also gets higher.
On a normal music material this still might diminish or we simply don't recognize it and then this midrange can be useful, especially when we count in room reflections etc. But if you're striving for a precise sound and balanced image you might look for other drivers which have a flatter freq. response. Everything else is pretty much "negotiable" like sensitivity, nominal impedance etc. etc. with silver wiring at the (almost) very end of the list if you want to reach the stars, but as a very first most important factor for your ears to satisfy them is the perceived loudness of your drivers (if there're more than a fullrange), nobody wants certain frequencies (especially midrange) to be higher or louder at the same volume setting as a woman sings let's say.
Whatever you choose, PA or home stuff, dirt cheap or expensive like gold, frequency amplitude response should be as flat as possible. Local tiny dips/peaks are okay and mostly inaudible on music material but constantly rising/falling curves on a wider frequency range is audible - and also makes crossover design a pain in the a**.
Final words: whatever you buy, depending what you're going to use them for, it might be great for sharing that with the community here before you buy the "wrong" drivers. Amplitude response is just 1 parameter to watch out for when you're going to design a complete speaker with different drivers and there're many other things to be carefully considered before buying.
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Having all that said, my point is: it's much more worth looking at specifications than thinking about basket or other materials. PA stuff is pretty strong in general, the cheap price is maintained through large volume manufacturing in China and the complete lack of voodoo-bs in the design. They're just plain simple drivers with no big magic, they're reliable and depending on model they have good sonic characteristics.. even without a fancy phase plug or banana-leaves-cone. 
And if they don't fit ? You don't loose a lot of money.. TRY them !
At the very-very end you ears will be the judge.
And if they don't fit ? You don't loose a lot of money.. TRY them ! At the very-very end you ears will be the judge.
+1
@ Flaxxer: btw a too weak basket material would (also) increase the driver's resonance frequency or even induce 2nd resonance somewhere.. so I don't think it's an issue despite cheap price and seemingly thin basket material. These are still PA drivers not built for 2 weeks drive at 1/10 volume levels but the opposite. Price is mainly low due to volume-cost-efficiency, affordable (but not necessarily bad) material usage (no exotics) and low labor cost.
No. It is not the funds at all. I am just trying to find where the point of diminishing returns are set in Pro Audio DIY. I also really am curious about this subject. I need to learn.
Exactly! A cast basket does not make a good driver per definition! And a steel basket does not automatically mean the driver is bad.
I've seen several times a broken cast basket, one time from shipping, two times within an enclosure. A steel basket can bend but there's a chance you can reverse the damage. A broken cast basket is often gone forever. Again, that does not mean either is better, it depends on what happens and how it's used.
Steel baskets are a lot leighter and cheaper and there are some you don't even need to 'route in'to the baffle.
Which PA drivers are made in China?
Both FaitalPro and B&C produce all their drivers in Italy.
As for steel vs cast aluminium:
I've used the steel-framed Faital 5FE120 which costs £20 here.
18Sound (also made in Italy) have the 5W430 which is very, very similar.
It has an aluminium basket but loses the demodulation and costs double at £40.
Either way on small (<6.5") I don't think cast frames make an audible or otherwise significant difference.
I really thank you guys! Vortex threw down.
I gained some fabulous info, yet realized I left waaay too many open questions.
I am not actually shopping for a midrange driver with this thread. As far as the stamped steel frame ... I put a bit too much emphasis on that, and misdirected what I was after more. I have used a multitude of drivers with different frame types, which were good. One of my favorites, still, is an Energy sub driver with plastic frame.
Where my question came from, is this. I have already realized the 6FE200, and the 6FE100, are giant killers. So I wondered, what exactly would a person buy, with similar sensitivity and freq response, that WOULD be a sincere upgrade? And into what price range mid drivers that you would now be looking at?
Or, if someone owned the 6FE200 and wanted to upgrade ... where would they look? And remember I am not shopping ... But I want to learn the whys and hows something would be an upgrade. And where we are all on the same page, lets keep the intended FR from 250hz to 1500.
Thanks again for the help.
I gained some fabulous info, yet realized I left waaay too many open questions.
I am not actually shopping for a midrange driver with this thread. As far as the stamped steel frame ... I put a bit too much emphasis on that, and misdirected what I was after more. I have used a multitude of drivers with different frame types, which were good. One of my favorites, still, is an Energy sub driver with plastic frame.
Where my question came from, is this. I have already realized the 6FE200, and the 6FE100, are giant killers. So I wondered, what exactly would a person buy, with similar sensitivity and freq response, that WOULD be a sincere upgrade? And into what price range mid drivers that you would now be looking at?
Or, if someone owned the 6FE200 and wanted to upgrade ... where would they look? And remember I am not shopping ... But I want to learn the whys and hows something would be an upgrade. And where we are all on the same page, lets keep the intended FR from 250hz to 1500.
Thanks again for the help.
For indoor, home use? I would think a mid that large would have beaming issues. But then, I'm new, and haven't seen a lot of 8" mid builds. I think this is a similar driver, with great FR from 250 - 1500, but in a 6.5" version.
B&C 6MD38 6-1/2" Midrange Speaker
But what I want to learn, is what could I glean from the above driver, which would make me spend the extra funds, over the 6FE200.
I can see why the extra funds would make a difference, when stepping up to an 8" driver.
B&C 6MD38 6-1/2" Midrange Speaker
But what I want to learn, is what could I glean from the above driver, which would make me spend the extra funds, over the 6FE200.
I can see why the extra funds would make a difference, when stepping up to an 8" driver.
The B&C 6md38 looks nice but I've never used it. The beaming shouldn't be too bad with the 8pe21 crossed at 1500, sometimes you just gotta try things. I did an experiment about 10 years ago with the same 1" tweet and 7" mid, one pair crossed at 1700 and the other at 2700 and I did not hear as much difference as I expected. I was able to find certain recordings that would allow me to hear the difference, but neither one sounded bad and I could have happily lived with either.
ymmv
ymmv
If I were in the need of something superior to the Faital 5FE120 the one I'd consider would be the BMS 5S117.
Consequently as a replacement for the 6FE200 I'd look at the BMS6S117.
It costs £90 here and comes with aluminium basket and triple demodulation.
The distortion plots BMS publishes look rather good especially considering that in this case BMS measured at 100W input, not 1W!
Consequently as a replacement for the 6FE200 I'd look at the BMS6S117.
It costs £90 here and comes with aluminium basket and triple demodulation.
The distortion plots BMS publishes look rather good especially considering that in this case BMS measured at 100W input, not 1W!
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Or just assemble. I've seen weird things in the world. European manufacturer of plastic pipes for buildings etc. Now it operates like: keep 1 medium sized factory where you still manufacture pipes but actually nobody should be aware of the fact that you're importing 10x the amount of the exactly same pipes from China. Now comes the trick: let's put our traditional "Made in XY" mark onto all pipes we have and sell them for good "EU" price - and keep the Bentley.
I'm NOT saying any of these speaker manufacturers do so ! I just say I've seen enough in the world to question everything a little bit. But it's just "a little bit" so if you're aware that even cone material, magnet, etc.. all is geniune EU stuff, woo-hoo. I wish you had right - still you probably have but I still have a little sceptic evil sitting on my shoulder whispering stupid things into my ears
@ Flaxxer: I didn't want to be too much, sry. Just had a little time..
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Great input for me too, haven't checked BMS speakers yet. Interesting is their plots with 100W - it's like magnifying little deviances too.
Can we interpret for a let's say 91dB driver it's 100W plot as +20dB lift over the ~91 1W plot ? Trying to imagine/convert these back to 1W/2.83V RMS plots.
I don't know if there are any rules for cone drivers on the increase or decrease of THD with excursion but I suspect there are none.
All I can say is that I would expect THD to be lower at 90dBspl than at 110.
BMS are a bit weird with their measurement. Some of the larger woofers are measured at 1000W input while being mounted in completely unsuited, sealed cabs.
1kW puts them near Xmax (as do 100W with regards to the 5&6S117) which is good but the sealed cabs of the wrong size make the FR look very bad.
That said they do look very close to the simulations of the same driver in the same bad box.
All I can say is that I would expect THD to be lower at 90dBspl than at 110.
BMS are a bit weird with their measurement. Some of the larger woofers are measured at 1000W input while being mounted in completely unsuited, sealed cabs.
1kW puts them near Xmax (as do 100W with regards to the 5&6S117) which is good but the sealed cabs of the wrong size make the FR look very bad.
That said they do look very close to the simulations of the same driver in the same bad box.
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