"Until Death Do Us Part" $220/speaker Dayton-RS TMWW Design ($170 speakers + $50 crossover)
Expert designer Dennis Murphy developed a very popular TMWW column speaker using modest priced Dayton Reference Series drivers. You can find complete plans on-line after you join htguide, including designs using the Dayton DC28F tweeter. The TMWW topology is very popular for average sized rooms because:
1) Using two 8" woofers allows both a narrow baffle and enough total cone area for strong -F3=32Hz bass.
2) GOOD 3-way designs use a high quality midrange, in a fast transient sealed box, over its ideal bandwidth - no cone breakup.
3) The tweeter is crossed at a frequency high enough to avoid strain, but low enough to avoid midrange beaming... and is at ear level = 39"
4) About $220/speaker (4-drivers + crossover parts)
+2xDayton Audio RS225-8 8" Reference Woofer
Dayton Audio |Model: RS225-8|Part # 295-356 =2x$55 = $110 (aluminum cone woofer)
+Dayton Audio RS150P-4A 6" Reference Paper Woofer 4 Ohm
Dayton Audio Part # 295-563 = $43
+Dayton Audio DC28F-8 1-1/8" Silk Dome Tweeter $15 Part # 275-070
HTGuide Forum
===========
If you can afford about $250/speaker (drivers + crossover) you should also consider the "Until Death Do Us Part" SB Acoustics 3-way, which uses a single higher efficiency and higher Xmax $95 woofer.
Expert designer Dennis Murphy developed a very popular TMWW column speaker using modest priced Dayton Reference Series drivers. You can find complete plans on-line after you join htguide, including designs using the Dayton DC28F tweeter. The TMWW topology is very popular for average sized rooms because:
1) Using two 8" woofers allows both a narrow baffle and enough total cone area for strong -F3=32Hz bass.
2) GOOD 3-way designs use a high quality midrange, in a fast transient sealed box, over its ideal bandwidth - no cone breakup.
3) The tweeter is crossed at a frequency high enough to avoid strain, but low enough to avoid midrange beaming... and is at ear level = 39"
4) About $220/speaker (4-drivers + crossover parts)
+2xDayton Audio RS225-8 8" Reference Woofer
Dayton Audio |Model: RS225-8|Part # 295-356 =2x$55 = $110 (aluminum cone woofer)
+Dayton Audio RS150P-4A 6" Reference Paper Woofer 4 Ohm
Dayton Audio Part # 295-563 = $43
+Dayton Audio DC28F-8 1-1/8" Silk Dome Tweeter $15 Part # 275-070
HTGuide Forum
===========
If you can afford about $250/speaker (drivers + crossover) you should also consider the "Until Death Do Us Part" SB Acoustics 3-way, which uses a single higher efficiency and higher Xmax $95 woofer.
Attachments
The Seas tweeter is considerably better with "body" or realistic imaging.
Very similar with regard to clarity (despite structural and material differences).
There are a few recent threads on building a cabinet with a truncated pyramid baffle to reduce edge diffraction. Attached one example 12" + 6" + 1" with a driver set ~$180/speaker + crossover parts ~$60/speaker.
Popular Paul Klipsch quote, "We live in the midrange", so the midrange and tweeter were selected for superior sound at a fair price.
If you enjoy clever wood projects, this modern art cabinet construction is simple except for a few thick baffle cuts. Two horizontal shelf braces plus one vertical spine brace will raise the panel resonance frequency by dividing the panels into smaller areas, and spreading the front speaker vibration energy around all panel mass.
Attachments
Well, I took your advice, studied some more, looked at this thread again, studied again...
It looks like I have two options at the moment, each with their benefits and downsides:
1. build a system for classical music, voice, strings... that being a full-range, one speaker, huge OR open baffle, which seems to sound pretty nice, but in this case I have to use a couple of woofers and/or subs
2. build a decent system overall, vented/ventless enclosures, 2 way/three way, that would work really nice (for guitar reproduction or jazz, for example), but not be the best for the rest
...actually I have a third option: build two enclosure (lol, not the best term for open baffle, right?) types and use each system for its purpose.
There are some really cool options out there, in terms of raw speakers, one of them definitely being the Fane Sovereign - I love that speaker just by looking at it.
It looks like I have two options at the moment, each with their benefits and downsides:
1. build a system for classical music, voice, strings... that being a full-range, one speaker, huge OR open baffle, which seems to sound pretty nice, but in this case I have to use a couple of woofers and/or subs
2. build a decent system overall, vented/ventless enclosures, 2 way/three way, that would work really nice (for guitar reproduction or jazz, for example), but not be the best for the rest
...actually I have a third option: build two enclosure (lol, not the best term for open baffle, right?) types and use each system for its purpose.
There are some really cool options out there, in terms of raw speakers, one of them definitely being the Fane Sovereign - I love that speaker just by looking at it.
How about two of these Peerless by Tymphany 830874 6-1/2" PPB Cone HDS Woofer
and this tweeter Peerless by Tymphany BC25TG15-04 1" Silk Dome Tweeter
to make something like this NOMEX-mkII
that will give 200$ to cabinets and crossoverparts.
and this tweeter Peerless by Tymphany BC25TG15-04 1" Silk Dome Tweeter
to make something like this NOMEX-mkII
that will give 200$ to cabinets and crossoverparts.
Hello LineSource
Could you point to the threads for those builds? I’m interested in the second one the satori and ribbon tweeter one.
Thanks
Loudspeakermagazine supported building an Avalon Clone called Duetta using Eaton drivers between 2014 and 2015. You will find a few published diy builds by searching their website. I designed a crossover for this Duetta cabinet using the AES TD12S and TD6M with the RAAL 70-20 ribbon tweeter. Today SB Acoustics, Satori, and Beyma $200 AMT TPL-75 are popular.
Michaels schräge Duetta - März 2015 - Lautsprecherbau-Magazin 2015 ...
Lautsprecherbau
Michaels schräge Duetta
Michaels schräge Duetta - März 2015 - Lautsprecherbau-Magazin 2015 | Lautsprecherbau - Lautsprecher selber bauen
Michaels schräge Duetta - März 2015 - Lautsprecherbau-Magazin 2015 ...
Lautsprecherbau
Michaels schräge Duetta
Michaels schräge Duetta - März 2015 - Lautsprecherbau-Magazin 2015 | Lautsprecherbau - Lautsprecher selber bauen
Ok, I purchased to test two of these speakers:
Visaton BG20-8 8" Full-Range Speaker with Whizzer Cone 8 Ohm
I know they don't have the best reviews out there, but I want to hear them, and this could be a good, not very costly experiment.
The manufacturer proposes a vented box, about 1.06 cu ft for 42 Hz, with a 2.5" diameter port, 5.75" long. Lower in the description, manufacturer suggest other two options for optimum cabinet size, using bassbox 6 Pro. Using WinISD and mh-audio.com vented box calculator, I get about 157 liters, a nice 89cm high box, pretty wide at around 55 cm and not too deep, which seemed interesting. I always thought these boxes would do better with a higher depth for some reason, but I guess math and physics contradict me.
I wonder why the box needs to be so wide and shallow.
Anyways, don't know yet which way I am going to go with this design, but I guess I will know in about 2 hours when I come back with cut mdf from the hardware store
.
Visaton BG20-8 8" Full-Range Speaker with Whizzer Cone 8 Ohm
I know they don't have the best reviews out there, but I want to hear them, and this could be a good, not very costly experiment.
The manufacturer proposes a vented box, about 1.06 cu ft for 42 Hz, with a 2.5" diameter port, 5.75" long. Lower in the description, manufacturer suggest other two options for optimum cabinet size, using bassbox 6 Pro. Using WinISD and mh-audio.com vented box calculator, I get about 157 liters, a nice 89cm high box, pretty wide at around 55 cm and not too deep, which seemed interesting. I always thought these boxes would do better with a higher depth for some reason, but I guess math and physics contradict me.
I wonder why the box needs to be so wide and shallow.
Anyways, don't know yet which way I am going to go with this design, but I guess I will know in about 2 hours when I come back with cut mdf from the hardware store
.I just finished a set of front speakers with the same goals in mind, but a little deeper budget, put them in service Monday, so only have listened to them for a few days. And so far every type of music has come out excellent except 70/80s rock, but I was expecting that.
Hear in lies the problem (I've been at this since I was 12, I'm 60 now). Back then there was a unique sound that many of the speaker manufactures were geared towards, I always refered to it as the west coast sound. It leaned heavily on a bass thump for drums and wasn't worried about a true flat response. Then there were some manufactures who geared towards flat response and consequently, didn't sell as well and of course were not too popular, they didn't sound good for rock and roll.
You mentioned Violins not sounding great in reproduction and I agree and thats normally because of the speakers and or the recording. Most musical instruments operate in our hearing range and by looking at the Fletcher-Munson curves, you can get an idea of how much db wise most humans need to be able to hear certain frequencies. Not all of us are born equal, some of us hear the harmonics of an instrument very well. I am one of them and you probably are too. So my advice to you is to look carefully at the frequency response curves of the tweeter and Mid range. On Axis on off axis.
Now for me, two way vs three way. I'm a three way guy and always have been. Most woofers above 8 inches tend to get ragged around 1KHZ mark, the bigger they are the more pronounced it gets. And many of the tweeters can't make it down that far, so in the gap were so much music is, we have the most ragged area for both speakers.
We are talking physical properties, yes I can make a 4" woofer work extremely low, but I have to make some sacrafices in order to get there and chances are it won't sound good in the audible range. And I can make an 8" good above that 1K mark, but I have to make sacrafices in the lower end. It's all a give and take.
Then we get to needed volume fo the speaker. Sealed, the F3 is goiing to roll off quicker, Vented you get a little more extension, but the size of the enclosure grows rapidly. Take for instance a set of RS270-8 I have. Sealed F3 49HZ cabinet internal 1.38 cuft. Same speaker vented F3 25.6 cabinet internal size 4.5 cuft. Thats a huge difference but its also a huge difference in the amount of bass you can have. So with out dragging this on further, my suggestion to you is to up your budget. If you don't, you won't have anything near to what you want. And if it's not, you will loose heart. If your first build is close, then it becomes an addiction, trying to squeeze just a bit more out. Then you can play and I know how you engineers are, I've been in the Instrument and Electrical engineering business for a long long time.
This is what I would be looking at doing
Brand Model Price SPL
Daytona DSA270-8 10" woofer $59.85 90.7
Daytona RS52AN-8 2" $40.78 89.4
Peerless DA25BG08-06 $26.34 93.5
Daytona XO3W-625/5K 3-Way $45.00 N/A
$171.97 X2 $343.94
Now many may not agree with my selection, but I was doing my best to keep it as close as I could to budget and still give you some good sound. And you will need a little attenuation to really flatten it.
Hear in lies the problem (I've been at this since I was 12, I'm 60 now). Back then there was a unique sound that many of the speaker manufactures were geared towards, I always refered to it as the west coast sound. It leaned heavily on a bass thump for drums and wasn't worried about a true flat response. Then there were some manufactures who geared towards flat response and consequently, didn't sell as well and of course were not too popular, they didn't sound good for rock and roll.
You mentioned Violins not sounding great in reproduction and I agree and thats normally because of the speakers and or the recording. Most musical instruments operate in our hearing range and by looking at the Fletcher-Munson curves, you can get an idea of how much db wise most humans need to be able to hear certain frequencies. Not all of us are born equal, some of us hear the harmonics of an instrument very well. I am one of them and you probably are too. So my advice to you is to look carefully at the frequency response curves of the tweeter and Mid range. On Axis on off axis.
Now for me, two way vs three way. I'm a three way guy and always have been. Most woofers above 8 inches tend to get ragged around 1KHZ mark, the bigger they are the more pronounced it gets. And many of the tweeters can't make it down that far, so in the gap were so much music is, we have the most ragged area for both speakers.
We are talking physical properties, yes I can make a 4" woofer work extremely low, but I have to make some sacrafices in order to get there and chances are it won't sound good in the audible range. And I can make an 8" good above that 1K mark, but I have to make sacrafices in the lower end. It's all a give and take.
Then we get to needed volume fo the speaker. Sealed, the F3 is goiing to roll off quicker, Vented you get a little more extension, but the size of the enclosure grows rapidly. Take for instance a set of RS270-8 I have. Sealed F3 49HZ cabinet internal 1.38 cuft. Same speaker vented F3 25.6 cabinet internal size 4.5 cuft. Thats a huge difference but its also a huge difference in the amount of bass you can have. So with out dragging this on further, my suggestion to you is to up your budget. If you don't, you won't have anything near to what you want. And if it's not, you will loose heart. If your first build is close, then it becomes an addiction, trying to squeeze just a bit more out. Then you can play and I know how you engineers are, I've been in the Instrument and Electrical engineering business for a long long time.
This is what I would be looking at doing
Brand Model Price SPL
Daytona DSA270-8 10" woofer $59.85 90.7
Daytona RS52AN-8 2" $40.78 89.4
Peerless DA25BG08-06 $26.34 93.5
Daytona XO3W-625/5K 3-Way $45.00 N/A
$171.97 X2 $343.94
Now many may not agree with my selection, but I was doing my best to keep it as close as I could to budget and still give you some good sound. And you will need a little attenuation to really flatten it.
Thank you, sound advice.
I am working now on 2 boxes for the two BG20-8 mentioned above, going for 110 liters vented, with an F3 of approx 42Hz. Using MDF, cheap construction, I am really eagerr to see how they sound.
Based on this, I will probably try a set of Sovereigns, and then a nice set of 3 way (you convinced me to go 3 way instead of 2. Will keep you posted.
I am working now on 2 boxes for the two BG20-8 mentioned above, going for 110 liters vented, with an F3 of approx 42Hz. Using MDF, cheap construction, I am really eagerr to see how they sound.
Based on this, I will probably try a set of Sovereigns, and then a nice set of 3 way (you convinced me to go 3 way instead of 2
. Will keep you posted.Thank you, sound advice.
I am working now on 2 boxes for the two BG20-8 mentioned above, going for 110 liters vented, with an F3 of approx 42Hz. Using MDF, cheap construction, I am really eagerr to see how they sound.
Based on this, I will probably try a set of Sovereigns, and then a nice set of 3 way (you convinced me to go 3 way instead of 2
MDF is probably the most common wood people use. I use it for smaller speakers that I paint or veneer. On larger ones I use a cabinet grade plywood to keep the weight down and stain and clear and I am finished. I used to build kitchen cabinets and furniture for fun so I have a good supplier, you won't find this wood at home depot or any box store. The amazing thing is, I can buy it cheaper from my supplier than I could at any of the big box stores and have a much better quality of wood.
I'm not sure where you are at, but just a fair warning. MDF loves moisture, I'm in south east Texas, humidity central. So if I leave the MDF outside for a while, like in the garage, it will swell, not a lot, but it becomes harder to machine and keep screws in it. The core softens. If I plan on taking some time to use it, I will seal it with some shellac. Also, glued edges on MDF are very weak, you need to add screws to hold them in. Pre drill the holes and counter sink the head with a counter sink bit, MDF splits easy, I use course thread dry wall screws, cheap and easy.
Hope that helps
4-Way for Reason
There is some very good advice being given here. However, for deep base, 3 separate sub-woofers is ideal. Even if just one is used, the power handling demands and size of the 3-way satellites may be significantly reduced. I find this to be a superior design tack in regards to acoustic outcome and budget.
For a box building material upgrade alternative, laminate two pieces of 1/2" commercial grade plywood using a roller and some good glue. Avoid using MDF as if it were the plague. Besides all the negatives already mentioned, it quickly dulls a good, sharp saw blade as well.
Regards,
WHG
There is some very good advice being given here. However, for deep base, 3 separate sub-woofers is ideal. Even if just one is used, the power handling demands and size of the 3-way satellites may be significantly reduced. I find this to be a superior design tack in regards to acoustic outcome and budget.
For a box building material upgrade alternative, laminate two pieces of 1/2" commercial grade plywood using a roller and some good glue. Avoid using MDF as if it were the plague. Besides all the negatives already mentioned, it quickly dulls a good, sharp saw blade as well.
Regards,
WHG
Resurrecting an old thread. I finished putting together the MDF boxes for the VG20-8 full range speakers. They are big and heavy, no padding inside yet...
I paired them with an old equalizer I had and a brand new TubeCube. With the equalizer, I had to bring up the lower side of the spectrum quite a bit. They sound amazing for my expectations. I have to play with the equalizer a bit, depending on what plays. I focused on listening some classical pieces, acoustic guitar and some opera parts (voice). I am absolutely blown by the voice reproduction, sound amplitude and richness, even with the (only!) 3.5 w/channel. Acoustic guitar sounds extraordinary, also.
Looking forward to a set of Fane Sovereign 12-250 build in the future, and to a 3 way build after that. Thank you, all, for your suggestions, I will keep you posted.
I paired them with an old equalizer I had and a brand new TubeCube. With the equalizer, I had to bring up the lower side of the spectrum quite a bit. They sound amazing for my expectations. I have to play with the equalizer a bit, depending on what plays. I focused on listening some classical pieces, acoustic guitar and some opera parts (voice). I am absolutely blown by the voice reproduction, sound amplitude and richness, even with the (only!) 3.5 w/channel. Acoustic guitar sounds extraordinary, also.
Looking forward to a set of Fane Sovereign 12-250 build in the future, and to a 3 way build after that. Thank you, all, for your suggestions, I will keep you posted.
Awesome! Pics would be nice. Those BG20's are very nice.
Good luck with the process of completing the project, and enjoy the speakers!
What made you decide to use MDF? I know you said you were going to, but what was your deciding factor? I used MDF for my floor-standers because they are quite narrow, and I was also on a quest to test my finishing skills on MDF, but for wider boxes, I'm sure plywood would be nice to work with.
I'm planning on changing my boxes to plywood in the future - it's really nice stuff to work with. And it's not expensive (unless you get high-grade stuff, I expect).
- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.