But even if a tweeter would supposedly be able to play 1 kHz without self-destructing it wouldn't be good sounding right? I mean, 1 kHz, that's like upper mid bass. Can't imagine a tweeter, even the NeoPro10i, play 1 kHz like a 10, 8, 6-1/2, 5-1/4 or even a 4" mid would do it. If I would be rich enough to use a NeoPro10i I would certainly still use a 8 or 10" mid bass (considering if I was to use such a tweeter I would also use a 10" just for the midrange because it has to compete/match with the output of the 10i and mainly because of the level of insanity those speakers would be on. Just imagine what kind of speakers you would build if you have to use a tweeter that insanely big and powerful, those would be skyscrapers of the sound gods.)
Ha ! I just love the direction this thread has turned. As the OP, I know my old Heil monopoles will probably defect. Having recently fallen in love with the way AMTs seem so dynamic and fast sounding, I've already began slowly looking into high frequency transducers which can play really loudly, to keep up with my planned Pro driver speakers, in the future. I have quite a nice list started! With the Mundorf AMTs, the Arum Cantus offerings, Beyma TPLs, and even the Dayton ProAMT ... Now I can add the Fountek Neo to the list.
I haven't had the opportunity to hear a lot of the cool DIY raw drivers most of you have. So I do not know what most of the drivers being discussed on this thread sound like.
What I do know, is as a musician, these old Heil AMTs make percussion and horns sound more like real instruments than ANY high freq drivers I have heard in the past 30+ years. And I find that embarrassing to admit. Not as refined as the RAAL XR70-20s I owned, but close, and way more dynamic and lifelike sounding.
This is making me just die to hear some of the newer AMTs available. I'm having trouble imagining them being THAT much better.
What I do know, is as a musician, these old Heil AMTs make percussion and horns sound more like real instruments than ANY high freq drivers I have heard in the past 30+ years. And I find that embarrassing to admit. Not as refined as the RAAL XR70-20s I owned, but close, and way more dynamic and lifelike sounding.
This is making me just die to hear some of the newer AMTs available. I'm having trouble imagining them being THAT much better.
Have you looked it up yet? I know right, insanity.
I'm also building bookshelfs with the NeoX1.0, to really make use of the transient response of the tweeter I've chosen the Dayton Audio ES180Ti-8 7" as woofer because it also is super fast. It has a 3" VC, woven fiber glass cone and is rated to handle 100 watts RMS and and because of that power is it not only faster than light but it's also able to hit insanely low frequencies, with my enclosure design it has an F3 of 34 Hz in Unibox, 34, from a bookshelf with a 7"! Insane.
I haven't found it yet but this is probably a certain type of woofer. With the huge VC, a cone made out of any woven fiber, mostly neodymium magnets, very powerful and the ability to hit insanely low freqs. Morel makes them mainly.
Tell me if you know what that type of woofer is called.
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Then you havent heard a good ribbon doing 1khz. Nearly all cones are starting to loose it past 1khz. There response may be well controlled BUT thats just it, their in a well controlled breakup mode and the "color" of the materials and technology are starting to bleed into the sound. One of The reasons so many want to take the tweeter lower is to get around this issue and IMO nothing has the potential to do this ,and maintain good horizontal dispersion, better than a ribbon.
Sure some are taking the better domes down to 1.5k or so BUT they are struggling at higher volumes. The ribbon format allows enough surface area without sacrificing horizontal directivity to get this done.
The issue with many of the commercial offerings is poor motional control at lower freq and rising distortion below about 1.5 khz. This is fundamental to traditional ribbon designs but in the future you will see some change here.
Several members have responded with the title they feel I should have called this thread. I should have known, but I may have as well just went ahead and called it "Ribbons vs Domes", LOL
But that is not what I wanted. Luckily I have got most of what I wanted so far from this thread. I used to use a tweeter I felt was really robust and full sounding. And it could play loud for a dome. It was the Scan 7100.
I used to really dislike ribbons, until I owned the RAAL 70-20. But even that left me really feeling I would probably be looking to move up to the big RAAL eventually. I wanted more dynamics from the 70-20. The Heil AMT gives me considerably more dynamics and body than the 70-20 did.
I had a feeling that no dome would give me quite the immediacy and whatever it is I like so much from my Heils. I am just gathering more options which happen to come up
But that is not what I wanted. Luckily I have got most of what I wanted so far from this thread.
I used to use a tweeter I felt was really robust and full sounding. And it could play loud for a dome. It was the Scan 7100. I used to really dislike ribbons, until I owned the RAAL 70-20. But even that left me really feeling I would probably be looking to move up to the big RAAL eventually. I wanted more dynamics from the 70-20. The Heil AMT gives me considerably more dynamics and body than the 70-20 did.
I had a feeling that no dome would give me quite the immediacy and whatever it is I like so much from my Heils. I am just gathering more options which happen to come up
I would not really know. The only dome mids I have heard were older Dynaudio. And I have never cared too much for Dyn's particular colorations.
I can tell you this however; Now that I am single again, I ALMOST had my very first 3 way the other night !!!!
If ONLY I had remembered to invite two more people !
well the reason to use a dome IMO is to get around using the cone into its breakup region and so yes the dome should do a better job. BUT now you have to cross from the big dome to a little dome for the treble.
If its done really well its quite good BUT I personally do not like crossovers anywhere above 1 khz and in my experience the ribbon does this best.
I used to really dislike ribbons, until I owned the RAAL 70-20. But even that left me really feeling I would probably be looking to move up to the big RAAL eventually.
I wanted more dynamics from the 70-20. The Heil AMT gives me considerably more dynamics and body than the 70-20 did.
I had a feeling that no dome would give me quite the immediacy and whatever it is I like so much from my Heils. I am just gathering more options which happen to come up
..the 70-20 is a higher mass ribbon AND its horizontal directivity isn't as good (being wider). It's designed the way it is so that its vertical directivity isn't as bad (as longer ribbons) and can be operated near the average lower in frequency.
Sort of a jack-of-all-trades and master of none.
AMT's are more efficient, and they have a LOT more surface area (in "trade" for excursion). In combination you can achieve something more "dynamic" at lower freq.s where a ribbon effectively "runs-out" of excursion.
-I'm honestly surprised that the Neo 10 exists, and a good AMT down to the same fs does NOT. AMT's surface area + modest excursion can easily surpass what the Neo 10 can do.. AND do it a lot more efficiently. (..the same is also true for an electrostat vs. an AMT.)
ScottG ...You said "AMT's are more efficient, and they have a LOT more surface area (in "trade" for excursion). In combination you can achieve something more "dynamic" at lower freq.s where a ribbon effectively "runs-out" of excursion.
-I'm honestly surprised that the Neo 10 exists, and a good AMT down to the same fs does NOT. AMT's surface area + modest excursion can easily surpass what the Neo 10 can do.. AND do it a lot more efficiently. (..the same is also true for an electrostat vs. an AMT."
As I have stated before, I have not heard as many as you have. But I love that 'more surface area' sound. I have read the technical negative things about AMTs, but apparently my ears can't hear it, with the DSP making things so flat.
-I'm honestly surprised that the Neo 10 exists, and a good AMT down to the same fs does NOT. AMT's surface area + modest excursion can easily surpass what the Neo 10 can do.. AND do it a lot more efficiently. (..the same is also true for an electrostat vs. an AMT."
As I have stated before, I have not heard as many as you have. But I love that 'more surface area' sound. I have read the technical negative things about AMTs, but apparently my ears can't hear it, with the DSP making things so flat.
Some people might like them better because they are compromised off-axis - with a resulting "dip" somewhere between a typical 1700 to 2500 Hz.
AMT is a great tech. However imo there are 2 basic issues. 1- The cutoff at the low end tends to be steep or somewhat ragged. This is fundamental to the mechanical properties of the diaphragm. 2- to get the desiered surface area they are usually a bit wider than desiered.
Years ago I believe Heil experamented with a teflon membrane to make a more supple and higher loss diaphragm but most have settled on kapton or polyester film that will be a bit more resonant and higher Fs.
IMO the best reason to do a ribbon IS to get a lower crossover freq. It makes a rather large difference when you can cross over before the cone start flexing a bunch.
The problem is very few offerings out there can actually do a low cross point. trully low I mean . Most are simply stating their freq response that sugests a low cross, BUT then latter give a recomended crossover freq up around 1.5-2k..
Magic happens when you have a tweeter that can cross at 1k or less that can do it well.
Years ago I believe Heil experamented with a teflon membrane to make a more supple and higher loss diaphragm but most have settled on kapton or polyester film that will be a bit more resonant and higher Fs.
IMO the best reason to do a ribbon IS to get a lower crossover freq. It makes a rather large difference when you can cross over before the cone start flexing a bunch.
The problem is very few offerings out there can actually do a low cross point. trully low I mean . Most are simply stating their freq response that sugests a low cross, BUT then latter give a recomended crossover freq up around 1.5-2k..
Magic happens when you have a tweeter that can cross at 1k or less that can do it well.
I use the Dayton one as my mid in my 3-ways, but it's not good enough up high IMO to use as the tweeter. I use a HiVi Ribbon above 5kHz.
My title is, "Get a short list of amazing tweeters to consider for next build."
I definitely got a few more candidates.
How long is a piece of string? There are good and bad drivers in both camps.
Generally the strengths of 2-3" dome mids are lack of breakup in the 5-10K region which means that 1-3K region is exceptionally clean in non-linear distortion even for simple motor designs. They also have high sensitivity due to low moving mass. Sensitivity is comparable to most 5-7" cone drivers, but you have the off-axis response of a 2" dome.
Weaknesses are that they usually have low xmax due to being constructed like an oversized tweeter (short coil/gap, usually lack a spider) and a higher Fs due to low moving mass. As a result most 2-3" cone mids can cross at 500Hz or lower. Most 2-3" dome mids have to cross >700Hz.
Also a lot of dome midranges have large face plates and/or magnets which limits how small you can get the centre-to-centre spacing with the tweeter and therefore how high you can cross to the tweeter without compromising off-axis response.
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