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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

Use an av receiver's zone 2 feature as active crossover?
Use an av receiver's zone 2 feature as active crossover?
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Old 7th February 2018, 05:32 PM   #1
rjbell is offline rjbell  United Kingdom
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Default Use an av receiver's zone 2 feature as active crossover?

I've been looking around and reading up on building my first speakers and reading about active crossovers. I'm a total newbie so excuse my naivety however while reading about av receiver's I noticed some have a zone 2 facility as well as being able to set crossover points on all there channels. Could I just use the the zone 2 and the front l/r channels giving me 4 channels to run the tweeter and mids separately then use its audyssey mic to eq your required freq response? You can pick up s/h av receiver's really cheap this seems like a easy budget friendly active crossover and amplification solution. Am I missing something here? Because I can not find any threads or articles online on the topic so its very possible Im talking hot air!

Last edited by rjbell; 7th February 2018 at 05:39 PM.
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Old 7th February 2018, 06:42 PM   #2
chrisb is offline chrisb
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Note that some receivers of a few years back actually included option for full DSP digital XO and bi-amping of front mains, while others allow for passive bi-amping. In both cases one of the pairs of channels assignable for front surround effects are sacrificed.

My Onkyo TX NR818 (circa 2014?) can do both, but I forget whether it's front height or width that was lost. Not as flexible in terms of XO points or slopes compared to dedicated outboard active XO such as Behringers, et al, or DSP such as miniDSP.

Of course with the latest bandwagon of Atmos being fully populated by most mainstream manufactures from the middle of their line offerings up, it's likely gonna be hard to find new models with either passive or fully active bi-amping functionality. This lack of total flexibility is the price we pay for the huge bang for the buck in terms of convenience and functionality in one box - something at which after 50yrs in this hobby I still quite amazed.

Without some type of HP filtering in place upstream, I'd imagine the Audyssey test signals would make pretty short work of damaging your tweeters.
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Old 7th February 2018, 08:50 PM   #3
rjbell is offline rjbell  United Kingdom
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisb View Post
Note that some receivers of a few years back actually included option for full DSP digital XO and bi-amping of front mains, while others allow for passive bi-amping. In both cases one of the pairs of channels assignable for front surround effects are sacrificed.

My Onkyo TX NR818 (circa 2014?) can do both, but I forget whether it's front height or width that was lost. Not as flexible in terms of XO points or slopes compared to dedicated outboard active XO such as Behringers, et al, or DSP such as miniDSP.

Of course with the latest bandwagon of Atmos being fully populated by most mainstream manufactures from the middle of their line offerings up, it's likely gonna be hard to find new models with either passive or fully active bi-amping functionality. This lack of total flexibility is the price we pay for the huge bang for the buck in terms of convenience and functionality in one box - something at which after 50yrs in this hobby I still quite amazed.

Without some type of HP filtering in place upstream, I'd imagine the Audyssey test signals would make pretty short work of damaging your tweeters.
OK thank you I'll back to my original plan of the Behringer.
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Old 8th February 2018, 07:28 PM   #4
chrisb is offline chrisb
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Do you have an existing HT receiver, or are you still window shopping at this point?

Most major makers will have models starting perhaps half way up their line with line outs for both secondary zones and all of the channels in the main surround set-up. In the case of my Onkyo mentioned above, there's a total of 15 RCA line outputs for every foreseeable combination of surround channel allocations and 2 secondary zones. Does make for very interesting rat's nest of cables when you use combinations of internal and outboard amps - it's always dark back there.
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Old 8th February 2018, 08:22 PM   #5
planet10 is offline planet10  Canada
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Use an av receiver's zone 2 feature as active crossover?
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisb View Post
My Onkyo TX NR818...
What Chris did not mention that using the active bi-amp facility in this HT receiver worked well to drive both our big MTM and Tysen V2 WAW (Woofer Assisted Widerange). Crossover used was low ó 250 Hz, how it would work with a convential cone+dome 2-way i donít know, but there is a lot more to go wrong up that high.

Click the image to open in full size.

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Old 8th February 2018, 08:48 PM   #6
chrisb is offline chrisb
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The Onkyo's digital crossover has more than reasonable enough set of crossover points for the MTMs - i.e. 14 fixed points from 250 to 5k. I think I settled on 320Hz as that was the nominal point used in another couple of XO methods tested - PLLXO / active outboard amps, and passive high level - but in the end, the boxes were just too big for the space. I also found that regaining the ability for front height surrounds made a huge improvement in overall surround immersion experience.

The passive line level XO mentioned is certainly a very cheap approach - "we" have used it more than a few times, but it does have some limitations:

- filter function is set by fixed R&C components for each selected XO point, so changing them requires soldering new parts in circuit;
- input impedance of all amps must be known to calculate the values of parts above (in fact the impedance can be used as the R in formula);
- best when restricted to 1st order slopes ;
- no attenuation or BSC included - the former can be easily taken care of by using amps with volume controls;
- variable line level output required from the receiver / amp - not a problem with separates, but not all integrateds have this feature.

Very low cost - the little box and RCA jacks will generally cost more than the passive components.
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Last edited by chrisb; 8th February 2018 at 09:05 PM.
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Old 9th February 2018, 08:51 AM   #7
rjbell is offline rjbell  United Kingdom
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I'm still window shopping reading and watching videos. I think i maybe trying to run before i can work. Perhaps i should build a small pair of desktop full range before trying 2 ways?
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Old 9th February 2018, 05:27 PM   #8
planet10 is offline planet10  Canada
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Use an av receiver's zone 2 feature as active crossover?
Sounds like a plan. I did that and now if i build a 2-way it is a WAW.

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Old 10th February 2018, 04:58 PM   #9
chrisb is offline chrisb
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Old 14th February 2018, 08:22 AM   #10
rjbell is offline rjbell  United Kingdom
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I should really start a new thread for this however if i wanted to build a pair of full range on the cheap and used some drivers from an old crt tv. How would i work out the cabinet size? What i be able to search the spec will the driver have a part number etc..?
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