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Metal-Paper-Metal laminate cones?
Metal-Paper-Metal laminate cones?
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Old 7th February 2018, 08:54 AM   #11
Dave Zan is offline Dave Zan  Australia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by capslock View Post
There were also the Görlitz cones, styrofoam with aluminum foil on both sides.
I think KEF did styrofoam sandwiches too, but it is specifically paper and metal I asked.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mario Pankov View Post
Paper...(perhaps the reason why its not that bad)...
when....carbon nanotubes stand at the corner.
Yes, when we can make 3-d nano-trusses with carbon tubes then they really will be the ultimate material
Until then I suspect we can do better with simple laminates.
I specifically mentioned paper because it actually works remarkably well, despite the fact it seems so primitive.
So an improved paper cone at small extra cost looks pretty attractive.
I am surprised that I have never seen it, decided to ask to satisfy my curiosity.

Best wishes
David
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Old 7th February 2018, 09:59 AM   #12
wolf_teeth is offline wolf_teeth  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by planet10 View Post
The Aura NS3 is a metal-paper laminate.

dave
Sorry, Dave, but I don't believe so. It's all aluminum on the pair I have.
Wolf
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Old 7th February 2018, 11:12 AM   #13
lowmass is offline lowmass  United States
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building a cone is a handful. While the parts can be goten with some effort, you will liley go through many many cone configurations to get everything refined to point of acyually having somthing good. To start I recomend gutting any cheap cone and have a go at that first.

I have built a few cones. They were all skinned styrofoam core designs. Some skinned with foils some skinned with paper, some with glass cloth. Some were wedge shaped cores like the old KEF foam foil "cone" some were more flat shaped, some were actual cones.
My goal was a 15 inch cone with a flat FR to about 2 khz. I ended up at about 1.2 khz first break (15 db hump!). These designs were all very riggid and went of at first break sort of like a metal cone BUT were quite flat below that.

Making the cone itself is the hard part. Not that its terrably hard to do but that getting everything right is a trial and error boat load of work but endless configuration possabilites.

Last edited by lowmass; 7th February 2018 at 11:16 AM.
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Old 7th February 2018, 04:01 PM   #14
planet10 is offline planet10  Canada
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Metal-Paper-Metal laminate cones?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Zan View Post
The description says only 'Al cone', but brochures are often sloppy, have you seen this personally?
I drilled a hole thru the cone to install phase plugs for somebody so have personal experience.

dave
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Old 8th February 2018, 08:50 AM   #15
Dave Zan is offline Dave Zan  Australia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lowmass View Post
...I have built a few cones...a trial and error boat load of work...
Yes, despite FEM even the professionals seem to do a lot of 'try it and see'.
Thanks for the real world experience.

Quote:
Originally Posted by planet10 View Post
I drilled a hole thru the cone...
Seems like an unsuitable speaker to reduce the cone area even more.
But if the customer wanted it...
Maybe I can find a dead one and pull it apart.
If anyone has a dead NS3 please email me.

Best wishes
David
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Old 8th February 2018, 12:15 PM   #16
martyh is offline martyh  United States
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3M makes some metal foil tapes that could make the process a bit easier to manage. It is available in various widths so you might be able to form a cone shape from it depending on size.
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Old 8th February 2018, 12:40 PM   #17
Boden is offline Boden  Netherlands
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Hello Dave,

Without first checking the cone material' properties, High Youngs Modulus, High internal speed of sound, low density, high internal damping, it is all a bit of shot in the dark i.m.h.o.

And then there is the cone's shape. I suppose you are familiar with the FineCone demo's.

Apart from the fun of experimenting (yes, I like that too, it is diyaudio after all) it is very hard to make any predictions without FEM or BEM tools. .

Good luck.

Eelco
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Old 8th February 2018, 01:49 PM   #18
Dave Zan is offline Dave Zan  Australia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by martyh View Post
3M makes some metal foil tapes...
I would like to make it seamless, but thanks for the idea

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boden View Post
the cone material' properties...it is all a bit of shot in the dark i.m.h.o.
The properties of aluminium are well documented.
Paper is a much more variable item, and why even professionals do a fair bit of trial and error, or so I am told.

Quote:
And then there is the cone's shape. I suppose you are familiar with the FineCone demo's.
Yes, they did stir my curiosity.
My inner would-be mathematician wants to try a paraboloid of revolution cone shape.

Quote:
Apart from the fun of experiment[s]...it is very hard to make any predictions without FEM or BEM tools.
I asked the question mainly to learn why I couldn't find any metal-paper laminate cones, make sure it wasn't just that I had missed them.
But now I really am tempted to experiment.
I think I would need some experiments anyway, just to provide initial data for any FEM/BEM tools.
There is probably no data for losses in the laminate, that would depend critically on how the layers are bonded.
The idea would be to make the bond constrained layer damped.
Then it could be better damped, not just than metal but even than a plain paper cone.
Stiffer, less massive, better damped - that should work.
But first I have to finish the hydraulic press enhancement, I posted partly as a bit of a relaxation break before I locked in the steel order

Best wishes
David

Last edited by Dave Zan; 8th February 2018 at 01:54 PM.
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Old 8th February 2018, 03:04 PM   #19
mctavish is offline mctavish  Austria
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check out ELAC woofers....
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Old 8th February 2018, 03:38 PM   #20
Dave Zan is offline Dave Zan  Australia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mctavish View Post
check out ELAC woofers....
Thanks, do you know which models? the promotional material mentions sandwich cones but doesn't say which speakers use it - and the site is unhelpful.

Best wishes
David
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