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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

Small, Cheap 2-Way with BR-1 Box
Small, Cheap 2-Way with BR-1 Box
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Old 6th February 2018, 05:04 PM   #1
nipper1 is offline nipper1  United States
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Default Small, Cheap 2-Way with BR-1 Box

I bought a pair of the Dayton BR-1 empty boxes quite some time ago. What have you DIYers done with these? I am going "cheap" at first to just experiment. I will be trying the SB16PFC25-4 6 inch with the Vifa XT25BG60-04 ring tweeter. Has anybody tried this combination of drivers before? I'd like to cross at 4 KHz or higher if possible and I plan on starting with 1st order, 1 coil, 1 cap.; no Zobel. Of course I realize I'll most likely end up "playing around" with different X/O types, slopes, frequencies, etc. BUT; I like to start off as simple as possible. I do prefer 1st order when I can get away with it!

6" SB16PFC25-4 :: SB Acoustics

https://www.parts-express.com/pedocs...spec-sheet.pdf

Dayton Audio BR-1CAB BR-1 6-1/2" 2-Way Speaker Cabinet Pair

Parts are being shipped now; stay tuned. Let me know if any of you have tried a similar build to the above. Thanks!
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Old 6th February 2018, 07:48 PM   #2
LineSource is offline LineSource  United States
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For a flat baffle TM, the most common crossover uses a BW3 circuit on the tweeter plus a L-pad to match SPL, and a LR2 circuit on the midrange. The difference in phase shift from these circuits helps compensate for the baffle physical offset difference. A ~2kHz crossover would manage the initial SB16PFC25-4 beaming, with good attenuation margin from the 4-5kHz cone breakup. Worth a simulation.
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Old 6th February 2018, 09:01 PM   #3
nipper1 is offline nipper1  United States
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Originally Posted by LineSource View Post
For a flat baffle TM, the most common crossover uses a BW3 circuit on the tweeter plus a L-pad to match SPL, and a LR2 circuit on the midrange. The difference in phase shift from these circuits helps compensate for the baffle physical offset difference. A ~2kHz crossover would manage the initial SB16PFC25-4 beaming, with good attenuation margin from the 4-5kHz cone breakup. Worth a simulation.
I don't worry about beaming at all and I prefer to avoid crossovers in the 2 KHz to 4 KHz range. I really do prefer the results of 1st order when possible. The first thing that I will be concerned with here is the break-up of the SB. What I usually try to do is get the upper most range of the mid/bass as high as possible while avoiding any nasty effects from break-up. When possible; I do this with just a simple inductor. I then add in a parallel resistor if need be to contour the roll-off (similar to BSC techniques but at the higher mid. frequencies). If this doesn't work; I then try a Zobel. Beyond that; I then go to a 2nd order low-pass (if need be). I do this all by ear; as a former musician, based on my personal listening preferences. I realize most designers do NOT go about things this way! Well; anyway, thanks for the suggestions!
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Old 6th February 2018, 11:38 PM   #4
nipper1 is offline nipper1  United States
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I suppose I should add some of my history here. I am a retired Electrical Engineer and Electronics Technician and have been playing around with speaker systems for over 45 years. I do this strictly as a hobby and for the love of music plus needing something to do with my hands and exercising my 61 year old brain! I prefer to experiment and "play around" rather than sticking to the strict science and math. That keeps it fun and interesting for me as a true art form. Obviously; this is NOT what most of you do here! Plus, as a former musician; I use my ears as the final judge; I know what most musical instruments "REALLY" sound like since I played many of them myself!
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Old 8th February 2018, 04:06 PM   #5
Lojzek is offline Lojzek  Croatia
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Default A virtual and mighty simple project

Passable for a low listening volume and probably as good as it gets with these a few passive components. Crossing higher would produce some weird looking curves but OP is absolutely free to experiment with whatever suits best. Have fun!
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Old 8th February 2018, 06:08 PM   #6
nipper1 is offline nipper1  United States
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Originally Posted by Lojzek View Post
Passable for a low listening volume and probably as good as it gets with these a few passive components. Crossing higher would produce some weird looking curves but OP is absolutely free to experiment with whatever suits best. Have fun!
.
OK, parts are in! First of all; that nasty looking peak on the SB is really not that nasty at ALL!!! Within the first hour I have already tried many different things. Obviously, the drivers aren't broken in but what I have observed so far:

The Vifa XT tweeter is AMAZING at this price range; no wonder so many people like it! I think it is MORE sensitive than the OEM specs. show.

The SB can also hold it's own but so far; nothing spectacular. However, for the money, right out of the box I'll give it a solid 6 or 7 on a scale of 10 (in this price range. (The tweeter gets a full 9 or 10!).

I tried 0.22 mH on the SB all by itself; the mids sounded too reduced. I then tried straight wired; not bad, just "slightly" ragged but to many people; this could be run full-range! Right now, I'm using 0.11 mH, 14 AWG foil type Jantzen and am quite pleased at the moment.

On the Vifa tweeter so far I tried 5.6 uF; too much output! I then did a series 2.2 Ohm resistor on the tweeter side; still too much. I then went to 3.3 uF with no resistor; still too much. Right now; I have 3.3 uF with the 2.2 Ohm resistor again on the tweeter side. This is a "Sonicap Gen. 1"; the resistor is a "Zister" from Meniscus.

Yes, as I retired EE; I can certainly design just about any crossover, notch, etc. BUT; I really DO prefer to keep it simple; let the drivers "speak" for themselves so to say!
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Old 8th February 2018, 07:02 PM   #7
Lojzek is offline Lojzek  Croatia
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Ok, this is what it looks like with that filter of yours.
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File Type: png Nipper's filter out of phase.png (74.9 KB, 182 views)
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Old 8th February 2018, 08:21 PM   #8
Mrcloc is offline Mrcloc  South Africa
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With that tweeter, I would have crossed this one at no more than 1.5kHz myself, especially with that mid.

Interesting design angle on this. I'd be interested in the result if you fiddle until you're happy, then swop out the crossover for a calculated 3rd order.
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Old 8th February 2018, 08:27 PM   #9
nipper1 is offline nipper1  United States
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Originally Posted by Mrcloc View Post
With that tweeter, I would have crossed this one at no more than 1.5kHz myself, especially with that mid.

Interesting design angle on this. I'd be interested in the result if you fiddle until you're happy, then swop out the crossover for a calculated 3rd order.
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Old 8th February 2018, 08:47 PM   #10
nipper1 is offline nipper1  United States
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OK, EVERYONE here is missing the point ENTIRELY! How many musical instruments have you played? The secret is to maintain the entire spectrum of the instruments and voice as best as possible with one driver. I think the best systems I have ever heard over the past 50 years use the widest possible mid or fullrange only supplemented with a woofer below 100 Hz and a tweeter above 10 KHz! If you do NOT have this feeling or experience then you are missing the entire point! I really do NOT care about the simulations or best electronic guesstimates! You have to experience a live, small jazz band or even full symphony orchestra in person THEN, tell me what you "HEAR"!

I traveled with the US Navy doing electronic, acoustic and other high level Engineering and related studies. I worked for Bell Labs! Give me a break guys; the end result should ALWAYS be.....what does it sound like compared to real music!
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