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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

Seas 27TBFC/G vs 27TDFC/G
Seas 27TBFC/G vs 27TDFC/G
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Old 7th February 2018, 08:02 PM   #21
wushuliu is offline wushuliu  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andy2 View Post
Well "good" is definitely a relative term. "Good" against what? A "good" Toyota does not really say much.
Sorry, I have no idea what that's supposed to mean. A few minutes searching of the afore mentioned forums should easily turn up comments about that tweeter. Some people love it and some people don't, and those that don't report similarly to the OP. Interestingly one of the posts on HTguide does mention possible change in the tweeter build <2008. At any rate, there is plenty of info out there going back 10yrs+.
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Old 7th February 2018, 08:06 PM   #22
wushuliu is offline wushuliu  United States
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Just one example:

Quote:
Jim and I like to go around on the tweeter discussion - we agree on the sonic traits largely, but we disagree on our choice(s) of the bunch. I find the TBFC to be sweet, but fatigue inducing - a tad harsh.
- CJD, Htguide.
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Old 7th February 2018, 09:06 PM   #23
andy2 is offline andy2  United States
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Originally Posted by wushuliu View Post
Just one example:

- CJD, Htguide.
A plural of an anecdote is not data and definitely not "true".
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Old 7th February 2018, 09:10 PM   #24
wushuliu is offline wushuliu  United States
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Originally Posted by andy2 View Post
A plural of an anecdote is not data and definitely not "true".
Lol, you're really wanting to make this into something more than it is, choosing to parse words with me vs. looking up the information yourself. Have fun with that.
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Old 7th February 2018, 09:18 PM   #25
andy2 is offline andy2  United States
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Originally Posted by wushuliu View Post
Lol, you're really wanting to make this into something more than it is, choosing to parse words with me vs. looking up the information yourself. Have fun with that.
I think it's you that are having fun.
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Old 7th February 2018, 09:35 PM   #26
Dave Bullet is offline Dave Bullet  New Zealand
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I'm really interested to see what the measurements say... and will post these up.

If I can't see the difference in measurements, either:
1. My measurements are flawed
2. I'm measuring the wrong thing to show the differences in the tweeters or
3. Not all that can be heard can be measured (ie. we lack a measurement, or my ears / brain are not able to be assessed, except via a can opener, which I'm not willing to undergo quite at this stage of design).
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Old 7th February 2018, 09:47 PM   #27
5th element is offline 5th element  United Kingdom
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The way the off axis plays, if different enough, can influence the sound in ways that some people do not find pleasant. I'd say that the metal tweeter has every so slightly more off axis energy than the fabric, due to its phase shield. You could try removing it and seeing what that does to the sound. That should, theoretically, give it worse off axis performance than the fabric version.
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Old 7th February 2018, 10:15 PM   #28
andy2 is offline andy2  United States
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Originally Posted by Dave Bullet View Post
I'm really interested to see what the measurements say... and will post these up.

If I can't see the difference in measurements, either:
1. My measurements are flawed
2. I'm measuring the wrong thing to show the differences in the tweeters or
3. Not all that can be heard can be measured (ie. we lack a measurement, or my ears / brain are not able to be assessed, except via a can opener, which I'm not willing to undergo quite at this stage of design).
Well measurements are only 3% of speaker design. Here would be my takes:

building cabinet 70%
fine tune 100%
measurement 3%

As you can see, measurements don't count very much at all. Of course one has to know what to listen for in the fine tuning process. Without knowing how measurements correlate to sound, it is really fruitless. Personally once I do the initial measurements for the .frd and .zma files, I don't really bother to measure again until at the very end.
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Old 7th February 2018, 10:35 PM   #29
Dave Bullet is offline Dave Bullet  New Zealand
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Originally Posted by 5th element View Post
The way the off axis plays, if different enough, can influence the sound in ways that some people do not find pleasant. I'd say that the metal tweeter has every so slightly more off axis energy than the fabric, due to its phase shield. You could try removing it and seeing what that does to the sound. That should, theoretically, give it worse off axis performance than the fabric version.
Both have the hexagrid cover. I don't know if the D version has the acoustic lense in the centre. I'd need to check. PS: these were factory supplied hexagrid - ie /G versions. They have not been modified by me.

Everything remained the same - apart from swapping tweeters. I was ~ 10 degrees off axis (normal listening position) and my partner ~ 25 degrees off axis. We both were able to conclude which tweeter was better behaved on the same recordings after 10 minute listening sessions back and forth. The only changes were the tweeter swap. We then varied volume levels on both. the B never got better, the D never got worse.
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Old 7th February 2018, 10:48 PM   #30
Dave Bullet is offline Dave Bullet  New Zealand
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Originally Posted by andy2 View Post
Well measurements are only 3% of speaker design. Here would be my takes:

building cabinet 70%
fine tune 100%
measurement 3%

As you can see, measurements don't count very much at all. Of course one has to know what to listen for in the fine tuning process. Without knowing how measurements correlate to sound, it is really fruitless. Personally once I do the initial measurements for the .frd and .zma files, I don't really bother to measure again until at the very end.
I think measurements are very useful to show if you are wildly off or in the ball park. What's surprised me is how different sounding these 2 tweeters are and I don't know why given they share the same motor and hexagrid cover. by and large the dome material is lighter (hence more sensitive) and stiffer (hence ultrasonic breakup mode) on the B version.

We'll wait and see - but I will be happy to conclude that "not all that can be heard can be measured" if my linear and non-linear distortion measurements show hardly any variation.

I also haven't eliminated a defective tweeter yet.
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