Dear all,
what a lovely forum this is, hours of reading made me feel quit happy. This is my first post over here
. I'm 37 years old, living in Belgium and for many years interested in all kinds of audio products. Have build and repaired quit some stuff, love technology and ... sometimes have my own visions.
Why post here?
Well many know more then one isn't it? So I hope to get nice info, know how and mixed info on the all kind of levels.
What is this all about?
Well after all these years, listening to all kinds of music and lots of speakers, amps, etc ... as we all do over here I suppose ... I want to build a one of set of speakers, specially for me and specially by me. First speaker I was thinking about was some B&W Nautilis lie speaker thing ... however then I came across some Genesis prime speakers ... My GOD what a nice thing it is started reading about them, and noticed the slightly smaller Genesis Quarted. After having a lot of youtube time listening to interviews with Gary Koh of Genesis I somekind started to like the guy's way of thinking. Keep it simple not yet simple and keep it clear and easy. Paul McGowan of PS Audio was also a great inspiration and help with his absolutely brilliant youtube channel answering some audio questions on a very easy way.
How does my living room look like?
My living room is 8 x 4 meters and as I'm living there with only my 11 year old son I can do whatever I want. However it still needs to be a functional room with a dining table.
Price ... price ... price ...
Oh my God was what was first going thru my head ... The quartet speakers are not really a bargain aren't they depending on the trim level we are looking at 210.000 up to 260.000 ... for one I think and I want some stereo so half a million for a set of speakers ... I think is is clear that I want to make something ... easy like Gary Koh would say. My budget is a lot lower let's say ... about factor 100 lower at least.
Plans
- Stereo set of speakers
- 1 tower with 4 woofers ... looking at some Monacor woofers on each channel (so tower left and tower right)
- 1 tower on each side containing a bunch of ribbon tweeters and due to budget reasons descent mid speakers
- everything will be wired without any crossover in the speakers itself so there will be a twin wire in the mid high tower for connection mids and connecting highs and there will be a connector for the woofers
- In a first moment I will start with an external passive crossover so it wil have an in, where my amp wires go and 3 outs to the low mid and high speakers separated. I was thinking of doing it like this in order to be able to go to an active system in a later stage.
- the original ones have also ribbon tweeters on the rear so will have quite some time on reading on this.
- in a first stage I will be powering the speakers using my Vintage marantz, it will be totally under powered I have a 2226L and a MR250 but let's start somewhere.
- I'm looking at some speakers with mainly high dba numbers i don't care about watts or extreme power. It's pointless at this kind of speaker design. All components (mids, tweets and woofers will have at least 90dB
- Total impedance will be 8 ohm ... remember ... keep it simple
Will it be as good as ...
Oh stop there, off course it will not be as good as the Genesis ... don't even ask ... there is no way a speaker of let's say 2.000 euro will sound as good as a 200.000 euro speaker. HOWEVER, will it sound a lot better then everything I currently own? YES I'm convinced it will, Will it be a very fun project to build? YES for sure, Will it be something I will be proud of to show to friends? YES.
Components (until now) on my wishlist
- 2 monacor DN200 8 ohm passive crossovers (build in external housing with plexy topwindow for that bling bling
- 4 woofers 20 or 25 cm all 8 ohm wired 2 in series and then 2 parallel in order to get a 8 ohm total impedance
- 16 mids 8 ohm wired 4 in series 4 in parallel again in order to get 8 ohm
- 8 ribbon tweeters 4 ohm wired 4 in series and then 2 lines in parallel to get also 8 Ohm
- lot's of banana clamps
- cables ... just descent cables no fancy pancy stuff
Woodwork
Casings will be made out of 18 mm mdf, every element gets a separated compartment so this will take a lot of time to make, every small chamber will get descent damping material ... Like I learned from Paul McGowan even a lower quality speaker can sound great if used in a very well designed cabinet. Lets get that done. The woofers will be made out of 1 layer of 18 mm mdf on the outside, then one triplex plate of 6mm then again 6 mm mdf on the inside. Inside splitup between the woofer compartments will be done with same kind of way of working, just like the real genesis. By doing this the resonance will be absorbed by the housing instead of fighting against it. Every woofer room will have multiple enforcement's on the inside. Finishing I'm not sure yet ... veneer or maybe nice to play a bit with carbon fibre why not.
Planning
It's done when it's done. First I will be repainting my living room then after that we can start to plan. In the meanwhile I will start the design, make plans and document it here, hoping to get some input and thoughts of you guys (and girls) on this project.
what a lovely forum this is, hours of reading made me feel quit happy. This is my first post over here
. I'm 37 years old, living in Belgium and for many years interested in all kinds of audio products. Have build and repaired quit some stuff, love technology and ... sometimes have my own visions.Why post here?
Well many know more then one isn't it? So I hope to get nice info, know how and mixed info on the all kind of levels.
What is this all about?
Well after all these years, listening to all kinds of music and lots of speakers, amps, etc ... as we all do over here I suppose ... I want to build a one of set of speakers, specially for me and specially by me. First speaker I was thinking about was some B&W Nautilis lie speaker thing ... however
then I came across some Genesis prime speakers ... My GOD what a nice thing it is started reading about them, and noticed the slightly smaller Genesis Quarted. After having a lot of youtube time listening to interviews with Gary Koh of Genesis I somekind started to like the guy's way of thinking. Keep it simple not yet simple and keep it clear and easy. Paul McGowan of PS Audio was also a great inspiration and help with his absolutely brilliant youtube channel answering some audio questions on a very easy way.How does my living room look like?
My living room is 8 x 4 meters and as I'm living there with only my 11 year old son I can do whatever I want. However it still needs to be a functional room with a dining table.
Price ... price ... price ...
Oh my God was what was first going thru my head ... The quartet speakers are not really a bargain aren't they
depending on the trim level we are looking at 210.000 up to 260.000 ... for one I think and I want some stereo so half a million for a set of speakers ... I think is is clear that I want to make something ... easy like Gary Koh would say. My budget is a lot lower let's say ... about factor 100 lower at least. Plans
- Stereo set of speakers
- 1 tower with 4 woofers ... looking at some Monacor woofers on each channel (so tower left and tower right)
- 1 tower on each side containing a bunch of ribbon tweeters and due to budget reasons descent mid speakers
- everything will be wired without any crossover in the speakers itself so there will be a twin wire in the mid high tower for connection mids and connecting highs and there will be a connector for the woofers
- In a first moment I will start with an external passive crossover so it wil have an in, where my amp wires go and 3 outs to the low mid and high speakers separated. I was thinking of doing it like this in order to be able to go to an active system in a later stage.
- the original ones have also ribbon tweeters on the rear so will have quite some time on reading on this.
- in a first stage I will be powering the speakers using my Vintage marantz, it will be totally under powered
I have a 2226L and a MR250 but let's start somewhere.- I'm looking at some speakers with mainly high dba numbers i don't care about watts or extreme power. It's pointless at this kind of speaker design. All components (mids, tweets and woofers will have at least 90dB
- Total impedance will be 8 ohm ... remember ... keep it simple
Will it be as good as ...
Oh stop there, off course it will not be as good as the Genesis ...
don't even ask ... there is no way a speaker of let's say 2.000 euro will sound as good as a 200.000 euro speaker. HOWEVER, will it sound a lot better then everything I currently own? YES I'm convinced it will, Will it be a very fun project to build? YES for sure, Will it be something I will be proud of to show to friends? YES.Components (until now) on my wishlist
- 2 monacor DN200 8 ohm passive crossovers (build in external housing with plexy topwindow for that bling bling
- 4 woofers 20 or 25 cm all 8 ohm wired 2 in series and then 2 parallel in order to get a 8 ohm total impedance
- 16 mids 8 ohm wired 4 in series 4 in parallel again in order to get 8 ohm
- 8 ribbon tweeters 4 ohm wired 4 in series and then 2 lines in parallel to get also 8 Ohm
- lot's of banana clamps
- cables ... just descent cables no fancy pancy stuff
Woodwork
Casings will be made out of 18 mm mdf, every element gets a separated compartment so this will take a lot of time to make, every small chamber will get descent damping material ... Like I learned from Paul McGowan even a lower quality speaker can sound great if used in a very well designed cabinet. Lets get that done. The woofers will be made out of 1 layer of 18 mm mdf on the outside, then one triplex plate of 6mm then again 6 mm mdf on the inside. Inside splitup between the woofer compartments will be done with same kind of way of working, just like the real genesis. By doing this the resonance will be absorbed by the housing instead of fighting against it. Every woofer room will have multiple enforcement's on the inside. Finishing I'm not sure yet ... veneer or maybe nice to play a bit with carbon fibre
why not.Planning
It's done when it's done. First I will be repainting my living room then after that we can start to plan. In the meanwhile I will start the design, make plans and document it here, hoping to get some input and thoughts of you guys (and girls) on this project.
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As a first every speaker design, I would say you are not valuing your need for education and practice well enough. The fourth speaker you make is going to encompass the knowledge, skills and also knowledge about yourself you did not know about when you started.
If you must take on something this ambitious as your first project, I suggest you go fully active. This will give you the ability to learn and refine your goals without requiring a great deal of electronics knowledge.
Why don't you start with 1 of each driver, in a wide baffle set up? If you can't do that, you sure can't do it in a line array.
Also, while I like Genesis/Infinity line arrays, IMHO a large part of the signature comes from the very wide baffle, and a little less so from the line array concept. So, who knows, you might find you get a lot from fewer parts.
Best,
E
If you must take on something this ambitious as your first project, I suggest you go fully active. This will give you the ability to learn and refine your goals without requiring a great deal of electronics knowledge.
Why don't you start with 1 of each driver, in a wide baffle set up? If you can't do that, you sure can't do it in a line array.
Also, while I like Genesis/Infinity line arrays, IMHO a large part of the signature comes from the very wide baffle, and a little less so from the line array concept. So, who knows, you might find you get a lot from fewer parts.
Best,
E
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Very much agree - I added some emphasis.
Also, given that "I want to build a one of set of speakers, specially for me and specially by me", I'd suggest doing your best to match the speaker to the room:
- make the array floor to ceiling.
- put subs in each corner.
Basically, copy the design in this link. The simplicity would be good for a 1st time builder:
Bohlender-Graebener RD75 - The Ultimate 2-Way System | Perry Marshall
A floor-to ceiling array of these (relatively) cheap ribbons + these servo subs would keep the complexity low (relative to a 3-way).
Bohlender Graebener Neo8S Planar Transducer
Rythmik Audio • Servo subwoofer Products - Custom Install series
...but would need roughly triple your stated budget.
As Erik mentioned above, and regardless of the depth of your pockets, or your cabinetmaking skills, unless you select a well proven DIY design, the chances of your first build being satisfying beyond the honeymoon stage are probably minimal.
I'd suggest starting with something more modest in scope. One of my builds of a few years ago is pictured below - altogether about 200hrs on these puppies.
Be prepared for lots more advice, and best of luck on your journey
I'd suggest starting with something more modest in scope. One of my builds of a few years ago is pictured below - altogether about 200hrs on these puppies.
Be prepared for lots more advice, and best of luck on your journey
Attachments
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Don't sell the process short. If you build speakers for your specific room, they can easily surpass any readymade speaker- in your room. Remember, commercial products have to be built with assumptions about the rooms and positioning(and furnishings, and tastes......).
Erik's suggestion re: dsp will save a lot of money as you experiment to find what you need and/or want. You can try all sorts of xover points, slopes, delays,etc for one price. When you are happy with it, you can build a passive crossover if you like, and use the dsp/amps setup on another project. You won't soon end up like many of us, with all sorts of oddball bits from old crossovers(not soon, anyway).
and Chris- show us some ugly cabinets sometime, so we feel better about ourselves.
Erik's suggestion re: dsp will save a lot of money as you experiment to find what you need and/or want. You can try all sorts of xover points, slopes, delays,etc for one price. When you are happy with it, you can build a passive crossover if you like, and use the dsp/amps setup on another project. You won't soon end up like many of us, with all sorts of oddball bits from old crossovers(not soon, anyway).
and Chris- show us some ugly cabinets sometime, so we feel better about ourselves.
Hey, hey,
Just woke up and read thru the first comments, some expected some unexpected. Let me answer already a few questions.
First of all these are not my first speaker builds, I've done several builds during the last 10 years a bit more serious then the years before. I've also owned several sets of speakers from let's call it A brands that I bought second hand. Refoaming, reconing, etc all learned over the years. First things I made ... like all Benjamins do where subwoofers in car without to much knowledge. Read later on several books on speaker designs mainly books that where available at the library so 70's and 80's techniques. I'm certainly no hifi guru like many people here but it's not like that I'm just going to putt some stuff together and never did woodworking, I have a workshop at my house with quit some stuff as my other hobby requires quit a lot of manual mechanical works (I own a few Japanese sportscars from the 70's 80's ).
It might not be a surprise after reading that stuff ... thanks by the way for taking your time ... that I'm also more of a class ab amp lover than a class D ... Is a good class D better, yeah probably are there quit a lot of very bad class D amps ... sure you guys know.
Cabinet building is an art itself and I'm very aware of this! VERY VERY VERY even. Currently the plans are mainly in my head, a bunch of excels on my computer.
My idea is to mainly don't reinvent the wheel. I saw some pretty clever things done by several official speaker builders but also here on the forum. Some of you guys have absolute brilliant stuff and idea's.
One of the reasons I want to go for the inspiration on the Genesis speakers is the fact that I really like the way they look. The massive separated woofer tower, the front with all the small elements in a line, the curved housing ... sure you can build something else, sure you can build probably top speakers with way less elements ... will it look anything like this? Not to me
Being ambitious is always a good thing ... if 15 people are in a meeting room discussing on how something can't be done a 16th guy comes in and didn't hear the discussion ... he just might be the guy that says ... "Alright I will do it, lets make this happen".
Active Passive discussion
- The Monacor crossover is not very popular here secretly I was expecting that. Those who read clearly can read that it would be as a starter and in order to be able to connect my vintage amps to the speakers. I want them as universal as possible. My idea on selecting the Monacor crossovers was quit simple, I had a look at several off-shelf crossovers and these seem to me, considering the price to have the best components (not cheap film con's etc) plus an interesting 700 hz / 3500 hz change point (sorry I'm not native english so not sure how to translate it) woofers that go up to 700 are easy to find and 3500 is a good point for the ribbon tweeters I found, mids with a good 700 - 3500 is also quit do-able, power handling is beyond my needs so as a starter I was just thinking of using these. Going active in the future is off course the way to go, I'm fully aware of that however it also comes with a price. The Monacor crossovers can also be re-used afterwards for other projects.
The plans in my head for an active setup would be 6 Marantz MA-500 monoblocks or 2 MA-700 for the woofers and 4 MA-500's for the mid and tweeters. Finding them is kind of hard, they have a certain price so let's just start with putting everything on paper, in excels, in modelling and build slowly to spread the investment. I suppose you guys somehow do the same or you have to have a big starting budget. I like my stuff as universal as possible so having the option with a passive crossover and being able to use my vintage gear is a thing that I like to keep. The electronic crossovers etc are pretty new to me so I first want to read a lot before I buy stuff, having some spare things is fine, having thousands of euro's laying around unused is less of a show maker to me.
Why Marantz?
I currently own about 70 champagne colored Marantz components that I've cleaned, recapped if needed, fixed. No led conversion or other stuff pure in it's original state. Marantz just stole my heart and it's a family thing. My dad had Marantz, my grand parents had a Marantz stereo with ... bose speakers ... so I somehow want to stick to Marantz. Yeah yeah yeah ... I also like Mcintosh we all do don't we?
So total conclusion
- it's very ambitious YES
- I don't only look at the performance ... also the looks It's a bit like a lamborghini, it's not the fastest car, it's not the most practical car, it's not very reliable, ... but you fall in love and had a poster of it when you where a child ... that kind of thing
- passive as a starter
- active once I find the specific things I like ... or advise I might get for example here certainly on crossovers and modern stuff
Just woke up and read thru the first comments, some expected some unexpected. Let me answer already a few questions.
First of all these are not my first speaker builds, I've done several builds during the last 10 years a bit more serious then the years before. I've also owned several sets of speakers from let's call it A brands that I bought second hand. Refoaming, reconing, etc all learned over the years. First things I made ... like all Benjamins do where subwoofers in car without to much knowledge. Read later on several books on speaker designs mainly books that where available at the library so 70's and 80's techniques. I'm certainly no hifi guru like many people here but it's not like that I'm just going to putt some stuff together and never did woodworking, I have a workshop at my house with quit some stuff
as my other hobby requires quit a lot of manual mechanical works (I own a few Japanese sportscars from the 70's 80's ).It might not be a surprise after reading that stuff ... thanks by the way for taking your time ... that I'm also more of a class ab amp lover than a class D ... Is a good class D better, yeah probably
are there quit a lot of very bad class D amps ... sure you guys know. Cabinet building is an art itself and I'm very aware of this! VERY VERY VERY even. Currently the plans are mainly in my head, a bunch of excels on my computer.
My idea is to mainly don't reinvent the wheel. I saw some pretty clever things done by several official speaker builders but also here on the forum. Some of you guys have absolute brilliant stuff and idea's.
One of the reasons I want to go for the inspiration on the Genesis speakers is the fact that I really like the way they look. The massive separated woofer tower, the front with all the small elements in a line, the curved housing ... sure you can build something else, sure you can build probably top speakers with way less elements ... will it look anything like this? Not to me
Being ambitious is always a good thing ... if 15 people are in a meeting room discussing on how something can't be done a 16th guy comes in and didn't hear the discussion ... he just might be the guy that says ... "Alright I will do it, lets make this happen".
Active Passive discussion
- The Monacor crossover is not very popular here
secretly I was expecting that. Those who read clearly can read that it would be as a starter and in order to be able to connect my vintage amps to the speakers. I want them as universal as possible. My idea on selecting the Monacor crossovers was quit simple, I had a look at several off-shelf crossovers and these seem to me, considering the price to have the best components (not cheap film con's etc) plus an interesting 700 hz / 3500 hz change point (sorry I'm not native english so not sure how to translate it) woofers that go up to 700 are easy to find and 3500 is a good point for the ribbon tweeters I found, mids with a good 700 - 3500 is also quit do-able, power handling is beyond my needs so as a starter I was just thinking of using these. Going active in the future is off course the way to go, I'm fully aware of that however it also comes with a price. The Monacor crossovers can also be re-used afterwards for other projects. The plans in my head for an active setup would be 6 Marantz MA-500 monoblocks or 2 MA-700 for the woofers and 4 MA-500's for the mid and tweeters. Finding them is kind of hard, they have a certain price so let's just start with putting everything on paper, in excels, in modelling and build slowly to spread the investment. I suppose you guys somehow do the same or you have to have a big starting budget. I like my stuff as universal as possible so having the option with a passive crossover and being able to use my vintage gear is a thing that I like to keep. The electronic crossovers etc are pretty new to me so I first want to read a lot before I buy stuff, having some spare things is fine, having thousands of euro's laying around unused is less of a show maker to me.
Why Marantz?
I currently own about 70 champagne colored Marantz components that I've cleaned, recapped if needed, fixed. No led conversion or other stuff pure in it's original state. Marantz just stole my heart and it's a family thing. My dad had Marantz, my grand parents had a Marantz stereo with ... bose speakers ... so I somehow want to stick to Marantz. Yeah yeah yeah ... I also like Mcintosh
we all do don't we?So total conclusion
- it's very ambitious YES
- I don't only look at the performance ... also the looks
It's a bit like a lamborghini, it's not the fastest car, it's not the most practical car, it's not very reliable, ... but you fall in love and had a poster of it when you where a child ... that kind of thing- passive as a starter
- active once I find the specific things I like ... or advise I might get for example here certainly on crossovers and modern stuff
You might want to read this thread: Infinite Line Source: analysis
While it does not cover all you'd need to know, it's a more than excellent start on line array theory!
If you choose wisely, I don't see why you couldn't get something that performs as good as the real thing. Especially if you go full active as arrays do need help. Lots to learn? Yes, but worth it. All the time spend in preparation will pay off. Think each step trough, know why you pick each driver making up the total. Arrays will give you the driver you use back on steroids, make sure you picked the right one!
I'm not a fan of trying fewer drivers. Read that thread I linked to learn why.
While it does not cover all you'd need to know, it's a more than excellent start on line array theory!
If you choose wisely, I don't see why you couldn't get something that performs as good as the real thing. Especially if you go full active as arrays do need help. Lots to learn? Yes, but worth it. All the time spend in preparation will pay off. Think each step trough, know why you pick each driver making up the total. Arrays will give you the driver you use back on steroids, make sure you picked the right one!
I'm not a fan of trying fewer drivers. Read that thread I linked to learn why.
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Last week a friend of mine who is working in audio but more stage and concert related talked to me and the passive active crossover also came as a discussion point ... the cost is the main difference we agreed on but he insisted indeed also that active will give a way better result. Creating the two options by putting the passive crossover also in an external housing is what came out it gives me full flexibility. Another thing he said was also quit interesting. For the woofers he proposed to use a standard size, this give you the agility to upgrade whenever you want. I'm a bit skeptic on that one because you nearly never find speakers with exactly the same VAS values, using another driver in my opinion always requires recalculation. HOWEVER for the mid and tweeters he actually has a good point. One of the results will be that my speaker will not be screwed with traditional screws directly into the wood, I will be preparing a screw bus in the wood and use machine screws instead of parker screws. It also helps making replacement easy when a speaker is broken.
The guy has years of passion behind him when talking to him on active systems and talkng about my plans he proposed, considering my room, etc to go for:
- DAP DSM-26 MKII digital crossover
- 4 behringer A500 reference amplifiers
-- 1 in dual channel mode for the tweeters
-- 1 in dual channel mode for the mids
-- 1 bridged for the left woofers
-- 1 bridged for the right woofers
Total investment around 1300 euro
The Crossover has pretty impressive numbers there is a cheaper version working at 48 khz and less flexible so he told me this thing is the one you really want to have
Specs on DSM-26 MKII
The DSM-26 MKII is a 2 in- and 6 output speaker manager that can be used for a wide range of applications. It has all the dynamics you need to tune many different types of speaker set-ups. At the front it has an USB connection port which enables you to program the DSM-26 MKII with the included software. The RS485 interface gives you the possibility to connect and program multiple units at once. It has a powerful chipset that makes it possible to use all filter slopes until 48 dB per octave and all equalizer, delay sections without running out of memory or calculations. The DSM-26 MKII is suitable for professional PA systems, line arrays and audio installations, as well as sound distribution networks. The MKII version has been improved on the following points:
• Adjustable noise gate on inputs
• System separate function lock
• Improved software GUI and functions
• Improved software resolution
• Upgraded, more stable, DSP
Specifications
DSP: 96 kHz, 32 bits floating point DSP, 192 kHz
AD/DA Converters: 24 bitsInput gain: -80dB - +12dB, step @ 0,1 dB
Input Impedance: Balanced 20kΩ
Output gain: -80dB - +12dB, step @ 0,1 dB
Output Impedance: Balanced 100Ω
CMRR: >70dB@1kHz
Input range: ≤ ±25 dBu
Frequency response: 20Hz – 20kHz ±0,5dB
S/NR: >110dB
THD: <0,01% @output=0dBu/1kHz
Crosstalk: >80dB@1kHz
6-Bands Input EQ
Bandwidth: 0,05 to 3 octaves in 0,05 octave steps
EQ gain control: -20 dB to +20 dB
EQ frequencies: 19,7Hz to 20kHz in 1/24 octave steps
Delay
Input delay: Channel independent from 0 to 1000 mS
Output delay: Channel independent from 0 to 1000 mS
6-Bands Output EQ
Type: Low Shelf, High Shelf and Parametric
Lo/High shelf slope: 6 dB/12 dB
EQ Bandwidth: 0,05 to 3 octaves in 0,05 steps.
EQ gain control: -20 dB to +20 dB on al EQ types.
EQ frequencies: 19,7 Hz to 20 kHz in 1/24 octave steps
Crossovers
Types: Linkwitz Riley, Bessel and Butterworth
Slopes: 12, 18, 24, 30, 36, 42, 48 dB/octave
Frequencies: 19,7 Hz to 20 kHz in 1/24 octave steps
Limiter
Threshold points: -40 to +20 dBu in 0,5 dB steps
Attack times: 0,3 mS to 200 mS
Attack time steps: 0,1 mS steps from 0,3 to 1 mS, 1 mS steps from 1 to 100 mS
Release times: 50 ms – 5000 ms
Miscellaneous:
Memory Storage: 30 User presets
Display: 2x 24 dot matrix characters
Latency: 2,61 mS
USB Interface: 1x Front
RS-485 interface: 2x Back
Power Supply: 110/220 Volt AC, 50/60 Hz
Power Consumption: 25 Watt
Fuse: F0,5A/250V
Dimensions: 482 x 44 x 192 mm(WxHxD)
Net weight: 3,4 kg
Accessories: Power-cable, USB cable, Software
RS485 interface not included, order code D2071
The amp specs
Full manual:
https://www.parts-express.com/pedocs/manuals/248-749-behringer-a500-manual-43753.pdf
- It's a pure class AB amplifier
- Passive cooled so no noise of fans
Extra good things on this
- all passive cooled
- rack mountable
- price is do-able
- balanced connection by XLR or TRS
- 8 ohm 1 khz @ stereo 125 watt rms
- 8 ohm 1 khz @ bridged 375 watt rms
- peak power -> i really don't care enough to damage my ears forever i suppose
- Distortion <0.01 %
- Freq Resp 20 hz - 20 khz
- Signal to noise > 100 dba
- short circuit and overheat protection
apparently they have done a test with this amp and took an audience to do a blind compare and it was proven to sound better by nearly everyone above some way more expensive amplifiers ... is that a reference? well probably not
My toughts on it ...
- Well ... - it' not Marantz
- Class ab or class d ... pure on paper class d looks like the better student there are some comparable class d amps for the same prices
- this equipment doesn't look like real hifi stuff to me they advertise it as studio material, considering my friends background understandable however he told me these amps had nothing to do with raw stage products focused on loud and strong.
As you all can read and see ... there is still a long way to go and lots of discussions to make before getting to the actual acquirement. That is one of the main reasons on registering and posting it here
I would also like to thank for the already given info as the links above, the vintage Marantz active cross will be hopeless to find and ... i think i will go passive for the old amps active for some more modern listening. The other link on line source is very very interesting!
The guy has years of passion behind him when talking to him on active systems and talkng about my plans he proposed, considering my room, etc to go for:
- DAP DSM-26 MKII digital crossover
- 4 behringer A500 reference amplifiers
-- 1 in dual channel mode for the tweeters
-- 1 in dual channel mode for the mids
-- 1 bridged for the left woofers
-- 1 bridged for the right woofers
Total investment around 1300 euro
The Crossover has pretty impressive numbers there is a cheaper version working at 48 khz and less flexible so he told me this thing is the one you really want to have
Specs on DSM-26 MKII
The DSM-26 MKII is a 2 in- and 6 output speaker manager that can be used for a wide range of applications. It has all the dynamics you need to tune many different types of speaker set-ups. At the front it has an USB connection port which enables you to program the DSM-26 MKII with the included software. The RS485 interface gives you the possibility to connect and program multiple units at once. It has a powerful chipset that makes it possible to use all filter slopes until 48 dB per octave and all equalizer, delay sections without running out of memory or calculations. The DSM-26 MKII is suitable for professional PA systems, line arrays and audio installations, as well as sound distribution networks. The MKII version has been improved on the following points:
• Adjustable noise gate on inputs
• System separate function lock
• Improved software GUI and functions
• Improved software resolution
• Upgraded, more stable, DSP
Specifications
DSP: 96 kHz, 32 bits floating point DSP, 192 kHz
AD/DA Converters: 24 bitsInput gain: -80dB - +12dB, step @ 0,1 dB
Input Impedance: Balanced 20kΩ
Output gain: -80dB - +12dB, step @ 0,1 dB
Output Impedance: Balanced 100Ω
CMRR: >70dB@1kHz
Input range: ≤ ±25 dBu
Frequency response: 20Hz – 20kHz ±0,5dB
S/NR: >110dB
THD: <0,01% @output=0dBu/1kHz
Crosstalk: >80dB@1kHz
6-Bands Input EQ
Bandwidth: 0,05 to 3 octaves in 0,05 octave steps
EQ gain control: -20 dB to +20 dB
EQ frequencies: 19,7Hz to 20kHz in 1/24 octave steps
Delay
Input delay: Channel independent from 0 to 1000 mS
Output delay: Channel independent from 0 to 1000 mS
6-Bands Output EQ
Type: Low Shelf, High Shelf and Parametric
Lo/High shelf slope: 6 dB/12 dB
EQ Bandwidth: 0,05 to 3 octaves in 0,05 steps.
EQ gain control: -20 dB to +20 dB on al EQ types.
EQ frequencies: 19,7 Hz to 20 kHz in 1/24 octave steps
Crossovers
Types: Linkwitz Riley, Bessel and Butterworth
Slopes: 12, 18, 24, 30, 36, 42, 48 dB/octave
Frequencies: 19,7 Hz to 20 kHz in 1/24 octave steps
Limiter
Threshold points: -40 to +20 dBu in 0,5 dB steps
Attack times: 0,3 mS to 200 mS
Attack time steps: 0,1 mS steps from 0,3 to 1 mS, 1 mS steps from 1 to 100 mS
Release times: 50 ms – 5000 ms
Miscellaneous:
Memory Storage: 30 User presets
Display: 2x 24 dot matrix characters
Latency: 2,61 mS
USB Interface: 1x Front
RS-485 interface: 2x Back
Power Supply: 110/220 Volt AC, 50/60 Hz
Power Consumption: 25 Watt
Fuse: F0,5A/250V
Dimensions: 482 x 44 x 192 mm(WxHxD)
Net weight: 3,4 kg
Accessories: Power-cable, USB cable, Software
RS485 interface not included, order code D2071
The amp specs
Full manual:
https://www.parts-express.com/pedocs/manuals/248-749-behringer-a500-manual-43753.pdf
- It's a pure class AB amplifier
- Passive cooled so no noise of fans
Extra good things on this
- all passive cooled
- rack mountable
- price is do-able
- balanced connection by XLR or TRS
- 8 ohm 1 khz @ stereo 125 watt rms
- 8 ohm 1 khz @ bridged 375 watt rms
- peak power -> i really don't care enough to damage my ears forever i suppose
- Distortion <0.01 %
- Freq Resp 20 hz - 20 khz
- Signal to noise > 100 dba
- short circuit and overheat protection
apparently they have done a test with this amp and took an audience to do a blind compare and it was proven to sound better by nearly everyone above some way more expensive amplifiers ... is that a reference? well probably not
My toughts on it ...
- Well ... - it' not Marantz
- Class ab or class d ... pure on paper class d looks like the better student there are some comparable class d amps for the same prices
- this equipment doesn't look like real hifi stuff to me they advertise it as studio material, considering my friends background understandable however he told me these amps had nothing to do with raw stage products focused on loud and strong.
As you all can read and see ... there is still a long way to go and lots of discussions to make before getting to the actual acquirement. That is one of the main reasons on registering and posting it here
I would also like to thank for the already given info as the links above, the vintage Marantz active cross will be hopeless to find and ... i think i will go passive for the old amps active for some more modern listening. The other link on line source is very very interesting!
You might want to check the lineup from minidsp too, if they have a similar DSP. Like this one: miniDSP Kits : miniDSP 2x8 kit
Thanks for this information, adding complexity
I was never a big fan of dps computer added stuff but it somehow does make sense I must admit.Do all of you guys have things like the UMIK-1? Is that a descent thing to buy in order to do measurements. It's not very expensive and seems to be nice to have if you are into speaker and hifi stuff?
Some additional info on the components. I currently have an offer on ribbon tweeters directly from a supplier, a sample is on its way. If I buy them in a lot I can get them for 12.4 euro a piece. He calls it ribbon tweeters. but they are actually AMT planar ribbon tweeters so it's not a true ribbon however ... for my project they seem to be quit ok
Specs:
8 ohm bit confused on this as they are advertised as also usable in cars ... first of all I don't think ribbon tweeters are useful in cars due to their lineal output, second ... most car systems are 4 ohm.
15 watt rms
30 watt peak
Freq range: 1.500 - 33.000 hz
93dB @ 1W/1m
Kapton & aluminium foil
Neodium magnet
115 gram
Recomended crossover >2300 hz
4" diameter (100mm)
No brand on them
I love to take some risks in live however after reverse image search on google Sounderlink
AMT-YDG4070-03-8Ohm-15W
4 inch is a pretty standard size
All toughts on this are welcome.
With a size of 10 cm
my plan was to leave a bit of space between them total height I was looking at about 200 cm 9 tweeters in the front
this is by the way an alternative ... it's a lot of 30 only a bit risky in import costs here in Belgium ...
30 Stks/partij High Power HiFi defniition Speaker lint tweeter AMT transformator aluminium voorpaneel in 30 Stks/partij High Power HiFi defniition Speaker lint tweeter AMT transformator aluminium voorpaneel van Combinatie Speakers op AliExpress.com | Alibaba Groep
top layer 2 cm
15cm with 10cm 4 inch tweeter | 10 cm 4 inch or 12.5 cm 5 inch mid
15cm with 10cm 4 inch tweeter | 10 cm 4 inch or 12.5 cm 5 inch mid
15cm with 10cm 4 inch tweeter | 10 cm 4 inch or 12.5 cm 5 inch mid
15cm with 10cm 4 inch tweeter | 10 cm 4 inch or 12.5 cm 5 inch mid
15cm with 10cm 4 inch tweeter | 10 cm 4 inch or 12.5 cm 5 inch mid
15cm with 10cm 4 inch tweeter | 10 cm 4 inch or 12.5 cm 5 inch mid
15cm with 10cm 4 inch tweeter | 10 cm 4 inch or 12.5 cm 5 inch mid
15cm with 10cm 4 inch tweeter | 10 cm 4 inch or 12.5 cm 5 inch mid
15cm with 10cm 4 inch tweeter | 10 cm 4 inch or 12.5 cm 5 inch mid
60cm nothing / floorstand
The rear of this panel will house 3 tweeters
--------- close cabinet ---------- | open rear 10 cm 4 inch or 12.5 cm 5 inch mid
15cm with 10cm 4 inch tweeter | open rear 10 cm 4 inch or 12.5 cm 5 inch mid
--------- close cabinet ---------- | open rear 10 cm 4 inch or 12.5 cm 5 inch mid
--------- close cabinet ---------- | open rear 10 cm 4 inch or 12.5 cm 5 inch mid
15cm with 10cm 4 inch tweeter | open rear 10 cm 4 inch or 12.5 cm 5 inch mid
--------- close cabinet ---------- | open rear 10 cm 4 inch or 12.5 cm 5 inch mid
--------- close cabinet ---------- | open rear 10 cm 4 inch or 12.5 cm 5 inch mid
15cm with 10cm 4 inch tweeter | open rear 10 cm 4 inch or 12.5 cm 5 inch mid
--------- close cabinet ---------- | open rear 10 cm 4 inch or 12.5 cm 5 inch mid
60cm nothing / floorstand
Same like the Genesis setup (kind of), not sure if the rear AMT's need to be in the same phase as the fronts, by leaving the mids open in a free to air they will have an opposite phase in the rear so I expect the same requirement for the rear AMT'. All input welcome on both the idea and the phasing.
another idea i was playing with ... it's quit a lot more work is create all blockes of this 30x15x15 cm size whit some bracket and integrate a laser pointer in them then creating 2 brackets to house all of them. This will allow you to tilt the speakers under a corner and form something that you can bend. Depending on the bending direction this might add additional space between the elements. What do you guys think about this? I see some
advantages:
- building 9 identical cubes for each side makes the woodwork quit simple
- you can play around with bending the vertical line (if bending them is not a good idea a layer of plywood can be added between both mdf layers in order to reduce even more housing vibrations
- construction will be very very solid as between every row of tweeters and mids you will have 18 mm mdf
- system becomes very modular ... if you want it to be higher or lower you just can play around with them add modules on the go
disadvantages:
- heavy
- the guy from the sawing shop will hate me for life
54 wooden plates for only the mids and highs - wiring will need to be somehow external, certainly if you want to keep it modular
- lots of work in painting or wood veneer
- additional wiring for the laser pointer
however that would actually be very nice for aligning the speakers (not always on off course) I will try to make a quick sketch to show the rough idea and make things more clear. For the woofers no thinking has been done yet roughly looking at 20 cm (8 inch) or 25 cm (10 inch) woofers as i think my house is not big enough for 4 times 30 cm (12 inch)
there the question will mainly be ... do I rear port them or do I make them close cabinet speakers, do I give them all a specific room or do I make one big speaker with lots of extra plates with rounded drilled holes in it, closed or ported, rear or front.This hole thing on where putting ports and to go for an free to air open mid with back tweeters or everything closed is not very clear to me. From my simpel mind of thinking ... I would think
- or open mid, rear tweeters and bass port(s) on the rear for the woofers
- or keep it simpel and close the mids only front tweeters and front bassport or close cabinet
All input on this is welcome, the original genesis have open mids, rear tweeters and i have no idea on bass ports.
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Found some cool midrange speakers for a reasonable price
AIYIMA 1 Stks 4 Inch Draagbare Full Range Audio Speaker 8Ohm 50 W Computer Subwoofer Speakers in AIYIMA 1 Stks 4 Inch Draagbare Full Range Audio Speaker 8Ohm 50 W Computer Subwoofer Speakers van Draagbare Luidsprekers op AliExpress.com | Alibaba Groep
8 ohm
50 watt
full range
90 dba
i noticed that going for 5 inch would be a quit higher VAS and as I like to keep the modules compact 4 inch is more reasonable.
AIYIMA 1 Stks 4 Inch Draagbare Full Range Audio Speaker 8Ohm 50 W Computer Subwoofer Speakers in AIYIMA 1 Stks 4 Inch Draagbare Full Range Audio Speaker 8Ohm 50 W Computer Subwoofer Speakers van Draagbare Luidsprekers op AliExpress.com | Alibaba Groep
8 ohm
50 watt
full range
90 dba
i noticed that going for 5 inch would be a quit higher VAS and as I like to keep the modules compact 4 inch is more reasonable.
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