Ambitious? Who knows ... Genesis inspired speakers

[HaerdenC]

I would advice to not just pick a cheap driver but a good one. The work a build like this would take deserves better drivers. They do not need to be expensive, but you'd need to know you actually get some quality drivers.
That 50 watt rating is not what you should focus on.

I fully agree on this, I'm not looking on watts at all with 9 speakers on each side even 10 watt would be good to go.

Had a look at a few Monacor and Visaton speakers but it is kind of hard to find 5 inch speakers, 4 inch is doable, 3 inch or 3.3 3.5 are very common but i woul like my mid to be visually at least as big as my tweeter ... this is pure aesthetics.

Getting 8 ohm speakers on a budget seems to be quit hard so these are already not the most cheap speakers on the market they have 90 dba and a nice graph on frequency range i think they are pretty usable actually.

I want to be a little bit on budget speakers that are 5 euro more expensive is a difference of about 100 euro try to find the most bang I can get.

I started drawing the blocks I want to make so the idea is making 18 blocks with 1 tweeter and one midrange ... they will have a width of 30 cm, 15 cm height and 15 cm depth in 18 mm mdf. internal it will have some ribs in order to limit the resonans. It will house the tweeter and there will be 2.5 liter for the mids. Depending on the speake I will choose I can modify my liters by making them deeper.

Because 8 ohm is harder to find another option was making bricks with
| 4 ohm mid | ribbon | 4 ohm mid|

putting the 2 mids in serie would also make 8 ohm

however that would be about 45 cm width and i prefer considering the place where I want to place them to have 30 cm. I understood that having mid tweet mid has some other advantages ... info is welcome.

 

[wesayso]

I would suggest a floor to ceiling array (having a shot to act like the link I provided). Get it above ~70% of the actual floor to ceiling height would be a good start. So that would need way more drivers. You started this discussion with a 16x mid driver array in the first post? Are we now down to 'only' 8?

I do not have tweeters, nor woofer lines but use 25 drivers on each side for comparison:

All of that to get me closer to the goal of an infinite length array (within reason).
I use FIR filters in my processing, arrays will need help, FIR would make things easier.

 

[HaerdenC]

due to the Ohms I need to get 9 or 16 speakers ... if I go for 16 I will end up with 2m40 of speakers floor to ceiling is 255 in my house so that's gonna be close call at is why i would go for
25 cm woofer on the floor 30 cm height (25 cm woofer) and use that as base for the line array
9 blocks with mid and tweeter next to each other 15 cm high 15 cm deep and 30 cm wide so that gives an additional 135 cm 1m90 adding some studs under the sub and a top plate to keep everything together would make it around 2 meter's of height so it is certainly 70%

 

[wesayso]

It's the drivers in the array that would need to cover the 70% of floor/ceiling height.
Not just how tall the enclosure is. The closer the drivers are packed together, the better they work to create something approaching an ideal array.
If you end up with a shorter array, I would advise to look into shading.

 

[HaerdenC]

hmzzz recalculation going on then ...

Forte – Two Tower Loudspeaker System – Genesis Loudspeakers

had a look at these so ...

 

[Rob41]

I will echo what wesayso has offered. Like you, my first speaker build was ambitious. They are nearly floor to ceiling line arrays and are the best speakers I've ever heard.

Two caveats. I had some very knowledgeable people here give great advice, and I use an ACTIVE CROSSOVER. Specifically a miniDSP.

I'm about to start my second build of a basic 2-way with a sub and so far I'm finding it to be at least as daunting a task, if not more because I'll be making a passive crossover this time.

IMO, a novice with a limited understanding of what they are doing can achieve surprisingly good results if they employ active/dsp technology.

 

[HaerdenC]

during the weekend I took some time to think about everything plans still change all the time based on searches online and this forum topic. Again had a look around on what would be the best ... doable option for me.

- I want to stick to separated blocks that I will pile up bi wired
|-- that makes it easier to move them if needed and it will reduce the cabinet vibrations
|-- easier to get the wood in my car
|-- optimal use of the wood (low waste)
|-- good to learn my skills in box building

- configuration mid 100 mm + tweeter 100 mm + mid 100 mm in each block
- 2 woofers in series making 8 ohm
- mid/bass 16 sets of 2 per side 32 speakers for stereo I will be ordering 32 sets totalling 64 speakers:
|-- Specifications:
|-- rms power: 40W RMS
|-- peak power: 110W Max
|-- Diameter cutout: 93mm
|-- Diameter :100mm
|-- Frequency range: 120 - 5000 Hz
|-- Impedantie: 4 Ohm
|-- 90dB @ 1W / 1m
|-- 7 € / pcs so for 64 it will be 544 € (Bulkprice 504 )
- Tweeter
|-- Specifications:
|-- rms power: 15W RMS
|-- peak power: 30W Max
|-- Diameter cutout: 78mm
|-- Diameter :100mm
|-- Frequency range: 1500 - 33000 Hz
|-- Impedantie: 8 Ohm
|-- 93dB @ 1W / 1m
|-- 10 € / pcs so for 32 it will be 320 €


- each block will be smaller in hight to make sure all speakers are close to each other than initially planned
- Tweeters and mid's will have exact same diameter so space between all elements will also by identical
- not sure if I will make close cabinets or port on the back of the block or just make the block deeper, waiting on the VAS etc for the mid/bass speakers maybe a central port on the back is the best idea
- Speakers will be piled up from the floor by making the blocks 16 X 13 cm 208 cm high. I will need to make a foot to put them on and in order to level them so getting a bit off the ground I was thinking of 12 cm so the total height will be 220 cm. My living room is 245 high so the 70 % of total height is certainly covered 220 cm high is exact 90% of the distance from floor to ceiling.
- I will need to read more on DSP and what to choose however as far as I understand I can already start building the 32 cabinets that will build the 2 towers. All the cabinets will be twin wired so no passive filters in there
- I will need two amplifiers 1 for the bass/mid and 1 for the tweeters ... in first instance probably my old Marantz amps later on maybe looking for 4 monoblocks

Total cost for the build
320 € tweeters 16 Aliexpress
504 € mid/bass 64 Friend of mine works at a car hifi shop and came up with this deal
250 € mdf panels + machined cutting home depot
50 € glue + sanding paper home depot
46 € Dual 4mm Banana Plug Jack Socket Binding Post voor Speaker Amp Terminal 64 X 0.64 € at local electronics store
12 € 160 Resin-Sticker Cabochon Epoxy Domes Round Transparent 30mm diameter 1 mm thick (antislip) aliexpress
50 € 100 100 pcs GD Amp Nakamichi Speaker banana connector aliexpress
18 € 10 meter (overrated) OFC speaker cable 2 x 4 mm² for the external connections between the blocks with banana plugs local audio shop
15 € 10 meter (overrated) OFC speaker cable 2 x 2.5 mm² for the internal connection of each block local audio shop
30 € paint Warm Inox (gives Marantz like color) Home Depot
50 € Damping sound isolation for the inside speaker walls
55 € Bassreflex port 45 mm inside 66 mm outside 32 pcs
1400 €

Until there for only the speakers connectors woodwork paint. Still some budget for:
- Active Crossover
- DSP
- Measuring device

Lateron
- 2 stereo Amps or 4 mono blocks

Imput will be another question I have a cambridge Audio DAC and a Marantz DVD 4300 as a starter

Questions:
- I don't look to much at the watts but the idea above starts to be a bit scary 1280 watt rms 3520 watt peak on each side ... is that not like a bit of overkill? That makes 2500 watt rms for only the mid/bass!!! My Marantz amp does like 2x50 I don't need an extreme loud system Tweeters will be 240 watt rms and 480 peak that's quit a difference with the mids ... still total overkill I think.

- these bass/mid drivers start at 120 hz ... will I still be needing a sub woofer on each side for everything below? Because then I will be ending up with a 4 kilowatt speaker system ...

 

[HaerdenC]

Wood is ordered ... 416 pieces of high density mdf ... next weeks i will be mainly building the 32 cabinets 16 left 16 right ... start saving for the 64 woofers and 32 tweeters ... will be posting pictures soon. The home depot offers free cutting of the wood there is no limit on the number of cuts they where not very happy ... but agreed to do the cutting.

No way back now

 

[HaerdenC]

Sneak preview ...

total height will be 208 cm !!! width will be around 37 cm, depth about 25 cm.

The drawings show just the wood there will be additional circles drilled in the inside plates in order to let the air flow off course and with broken corners, the additional ribs are pure to make a very solid housing with low resonance. there will also be damping inside and a bass pipe in the middle rear panel. The tweeter is installed in a closed compartment to make sure no air leaks are possible. There will be also damping behind it.

There will be 2 x 4 ohm woofers in series and one 8 ohm probably ribbon tweeter mounted. Going for this setup had some additional advantages I understood by placing the tweeter in the middle.

Every speaker will be twin wired in order to be able to go active ... as advice given over here not sure if I will add a sub woofer on both sides, lets start with this and see how they sound. There will be 4 banana plugs at the back.

I will receive some samples of special damping material will post once they are in, a friend of mine works in a factory that makes special sound damping products

I listened to the advice from this group starting at the floor and going up all the way.

Speaker distance is limited as also adviced over here

I bought 1800 screws and 3 kg wood glue ... Starting to be very very scary actually

Concerns?
- will it be stable to pile them up (thinking of gluing 8 together so they still remain movable) so building 4 big blocks of +- 1 meter height
- weight might also be an issue
- Power and how to handle it ... as in my previous post

That escalated quickly still searching a name for the project ... "Divorce Reference" sounds like a plan to me

 

[Nenola]

Looks interesting If you have designed and are going to build the boxes separately, I wouldn't glue them together... the "modularity" of your build disappears then.

Basically the four blocks is a good idea but it would have been smart to design and build those four blocks from the scratch, not from smaller pieces = more work, more wood, etc.

 

[HaerdenC]

Looks interesting If you have designed and are going to build the boxes separately, I wouldn't glue them together... the "modularity" of your build disappears then.

Basically the four blocks is a good idea but it would have been smart to design and build those four blocks from the scratch, not from smaller pieces = more work, more wood, etc.

we will have a look once all the blocks are build there is a good reason to build them like this ... MDF is not the best material to build speakers as far as I read over here however many big international brands use it ... but what I noticed is some of the very high level brands do something like this:

| veneer | MDF 18 mm | plywood 5 mm | MDF 18 mm | damping |

by making separated blocks we could add a layer of 5 mm plywood between each module. Same thing could be done on the outside if we want to ... HOWEVER ... I personally think that might be a bit over the top work

Having 2 x 18 mm as bottom and top together I get a very solid rib between each block, I kind of like that so I don't care about the extra work, extra wood. All the wood together including cutting costs me now about 130 euro I also like to build it like this due to the fact that it is very easy to handle each block and make it while drinking a glas of wine/beer in my living room and under living room conditions. (stable temperature + ideal temperature for glue to dry).

the build is confirmed!!! Wood is ordered there is NO WAY BACK

My brother is continuing the drawings

some of the things I'm looking at is maybe buying halfround profiles 22x22 mm in mdf for the central and rear corners however with lot's of damping material it might not be needed + this will also again reduce volume ...

besides the design also reading a lot on dsp and making up my mind on what I'm going to do. The initial setup will run on passive x over for a few weeks. This DSP stuff is highly complex and new to me as an old fashioned class AB 1970 - 1980 amplifier lover. It's pretty clear that none of my current stuff will be optimal for powering these speakers still not sure if I'm going to use class AB or class D amps ... not sure if I go for 2 stereo amps or 4 mono ...

 

[digitalthor]

On of my friends, use the newer minidsp with 12channels:
Car Audio : C-DSP 8x12

It has a newer processor, 3 times higher output level, to ensure lower noise and better control of your amplifiers.
Dont mind that it is build for cars. You just give it a power supply and then it runs fine.
Now you have all the channels you need to build almost anything you want. You can even add multiple subs and control everything.

 

[HaerdenC]

I think I will go for an alternative product

DAP DCP-26 MKII digitale crossover

SPECS

digitale crossover
build in DSP-processor (64-bits NXP (Philips) DSP)
sample rate: 48 kHz
memory: 50 user presets
Comes with basic presets
input: 2x XLR (balanced)
output: 6x XLR (balanced)
Easy userinterface
Screen: 2 x 16 dot matrix
Delaytime: 1,27 mS
USB-interface for computer connection
Power: 6V DC
Power consumption: 4 Watt
Size: 483 x 155 x 44 mm
Comes with: Powercable, USB cable, DSP-software

5-Bands Input EQ:
EQ selection: Allpass, Bell, High Shelf, Low Shelf, Notch
EQ freq adjustable from 20 Hz to 20 kHz in steps of 1 Hz

5-Bands EQ Output :
Identical to input
delay: Channel independent
time: 0 - 8 mS

crossover:
types: Linkwitz Riley, Bessel en Butterworth
slope: 6, 12, 18, 24 dB/octaaf
crossover freq: adjustable between 20 Hz en 20 kHz in steps of 1 Hz of octaaf

limiter :
threshold: -20 to +20 dBu
attack: Zero Attack Time Limiter
release: 1 - 100 (endless long)

Advantage
- cheaper
- Distributor close to where I live
- rack mountable
- balanced connection available
- I prefer to have a solution that doesn't require a Windows of Apple computer to configure (I'm a die hard Linux user and minidsp isn't doing much efforts in making an open api or Linux support).

 

[whgeiger]

The design platform. The Forrest vs The Trees

These are just a few brief notes that come to mind. I am sure others here will fill in the missing details and other important issues I may of missed as well.


First come the tools:

Start with a digital crossover and dedicated amps based on how you plan to carve up the audio spectrum.

A good calibrated microphone and related test gear is needed. You have to be able quantify the good and the bad you hear and know the difference. This can be done on a PC you already have when equipped with a decent sound card.

Then the Strategy

Focus your design first on the speech range where the ear is most sensitive.

Once you get that right, then address the high and low extremes.

For the bass, multiple sub units will be needed to address room modes.
Here Volume Displacement rules. I like to use servo control here as well.

For the high end, directivity will be the main issue. I still like use of an acoustic lens here, but there is very little documentation on how to design a good one. In any event, plan on spending a lot of time broadening the systems sweet spot.

As music has a high crest factor, dynamic range (headroom) is an important issue as well.

The Acoustics

Note also that treatment of the listening room is more important than the particulars of the loudspeakers you put in it. The integration of the two is of paramount importance.

The Financials

What ever your budget is, the mission remains the same, get the biggest bang for the buck. That is what engineering is all about, controlling mission creep.

Regards and Good Luck,

WHG

 

[HaerdenC]

These are just a few brief notes that come to mind. I am sure others here will fill in the missing details and other important issues I may of missed as well.


First come the tools:

Start with a digital crossover and dedicated amps based on how you plan to carve up the audio spectrum.

A good calibrated microphone and related test gear is needed. You have to be able quantify the good and the bad you hear and know the difference. This can be done on a PC you already have when equipped with a decent sound card.

Then the Strategy

Focus your design first on the speech range where the ear is most sensitive.

Once you get that right, then address the high and low extremes.

For the bass, multiple sub units will be needed to address room modes.
Here Volume Displacement rules. I like to use servo control here as well.

For the high end, directivity will be the main issue. I still like use of an acoustic lens here, but there is very little documentation on how to design a good one. In any event, plan on spending a lot of time broadening the systems sweet spot.

As music has a high crest factor, dynamic range (headroom) is an important issue as well.

The Acoustics

Note also that treatment of the listening room is more important than the particulars of the loudspeakers you put in it. The integration of the two is of paramount importance.

The Financials

What ever your budget is, the mission remains the same, get the biggest bang for the buck. That is what engineering is all about, controlling mission creep.

Regards and Good Luck,

WHG

Looks like this is kind of a global answer to any build however very good guideline some answers:
- digital crossover will be used indeed, at first with 2 marantz stereo amplifiers and once the cash allows me to 4 mono blocks. Rome wasn't build in a day

Calibration microphone will indeed be one of my investments! I was thinking of buying the minidsp umik-1 it looks descent and is decently priced.

Main focus on speech first is easy said ... I'm building a line array, it's not something you rebuild 5 times that is why I try to get something descent from the first time. Perfect does not exist and I'm fully aware of that however I hope to build something that works very very well and correct certainly for the total price I put in to it. I'm building 32 individual modules that makes costs multiply fast. 1 euro on each module extra is a difference of 32 euro ... I hope to be able to get everything right by:
- using a digital crossover
- measuring
- making sure my cabinets and modules are very solid, stable and with internal ribs
- band pass pipe in the rear

Bass ... this is for me a thing that will come in a next step ... if needed. I'm not on the search of having big boom boom boom in my house, I still have a lot of stuff laying around and even think that I have 4 identical sub woofers somewhere in my stock that are unused. I will buy a 3 way stereo DSP so everything is prepared if I want to add sub woofers.

Directivity. The vertical directivity will be no issue at all as I have speakers from floor to ceiling the horizontal will also be quit ok, the AMT tweeters are pretty wide and are kind of pointed to my sofa, coverage will be ok. The mids with 2 in the front will also give a pretty wide sound, I'm less afraid of this one.

Listening room, fully agree on this one, but one has to do it with what he has got In my case it will be a room of 8 x 5 meters that is also my living room and with my sofa in it. I have some options of putting stuff to the walls etc however in a first state that will not be happening.

Financials ... I'll spread it and will not calculate the total costs that's how a hobby should be.

 

[HaerdenC]

Just ordered ...
- 4 sets of 4 ribbon tweeters
- 64 dual banana speaker clamps with extended screws
- 30 meters 2.5 mm² speaker cable (Audio shop, Sinus Live)
- 32 bass reflex pipes

quit excited about this

 

[HaerdenC]

Total weight of one side ...
75 kg Wood
84 kg woofers - 32 * 260 gram
1 kg tweeters - 16 * 55

160 KG !!! on each side that is some serious weight hahaha modular is a MUST i think. Each module is exact 10 kg that sounds a bit heavy to be honest, we'll see on the first module build.

currently everything is ordered except paint and the 64 woofers ... still looking around to get the best deal.

On the tweeters apparently they are produced by TEINURO, searched a bit out them and apparently they are quit ideal to make a line array nice to know ... I've ordered 16 of them and will see how good they are once I build a few sets with them, if they sound good to me I will order the other 16.

--------------- full specs ---------------
The 4070-03 is perfect for compact 2-way and 3- or 4-way designs, as well as for use in multiples when incorporated into line arrays.
Highlights
Patented ribbon design
2,000 Hz – 32,000 Hz frequency response
High sensitivity
Linear impedance
Neodymium magnet structure for high flux and low weight
Ultra-thin laminated aluminum diaphragm
Ribbon Tweeter
YDG4070-03-8Ω-15W
SPECIFICATIONS

RMS Power
15W
Maximal Power
30W
Rated Impedance
8Ω
Front Panel Material
ABS
Diaphragm Material
KAPTON
Conductive Line Material
Alumium foil
Magnet Material
Neodymium
Terminals Type
Plug
Lowest Recommend Crossover
≥2.5k Hz


PARAMETERS

Re
7.6Ω
Sensitivity
94dB
Frequency Range
2k Hz-32k Hz


PACKING

Net Weight
115g/pc
Dimensions
Φ100*19.5(mm)

A ribbon tweeter's radiating surface approaches the theoretical ideal of a zero-mass audio source. The articulation, attack, and sonic transparency are quite impressive, and the diaphragm's monolithic shape and orientation provide a broad horizontal and tightly controlled dispersion characteristic, which is ideal for many listening environments. TEINURO's carefully sculpted waveguide faceplate further improves the tweeter's linear emission of smooth, extended high frequencies. The TEINURO 4070-03 is perfect for compact 2-way and 3- or 4-way designs, as well as for use in multiples when incorporated into line arrays.

--------------- End Specs ---------------

The woofers are Car woofers / mids ... haters gonna hate but I had a very very good deal on them just looking between two suppliers in my neighborhood. These speakers have a bit less info so measure and test ... the good news is that I can buy 2 pairs in order to test build 2 blocks and test these in stereo to see how they sound before spending 500 euro

From what I have about the mid/bass speakers
Brand - Caliber however they don't make any stuff so what speakers it are exactly is hard to determine ... will try to remove the label and see what's underneath
4 ohm
93 mm cutout
100 mm outside diameter
92 dba
160 - 5500 hz
260 gram / pcs
packaged by 2 (1 box 1 pair)
Bulk package 3 boxes so 6 speakers
7 euro a speaker +- so with 32 on the left and 32 on the right 448 euro

for the first test of the first build block I will be using passive crossovers at 5000 hz 2 way ... just for the basics. Once all the other 30 blocks are build I will start looking for a digital crossover and so on

For the lovers of wood cutting ... these are the wood cut out plans I used and gave to the Home Depot that cuts them for free

http://giveback.be/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/Zaagplan.pdf

This is the wood cutting plan 5 MDF panels 244 cm x 122 cm ... i will have some leftovers to make a few tools ... later more on that (to make life easier on drilling etc !!! There is at least 12 rounds to cut for each module ... that's a total of about 400 cutouts ... my God what have I began ... it better be worth it!


The wood will be glued with D2 Bison glue, I prefer to stick to a branded glue as price difference is quit low. Everything will also be screwed and I bought some filler + sanding paper in 4 grades

 

[HaerdenC]

Allright ... pure text and stuff doesn't get a lot of response so let's go for a post that confirms this thing is going to be real.

All nice cut pieces of high density mdf ...

It's a bit like tetris ... just fits the boot of my car and yes it has the Mark Levinson system

My brother is still a student ... wanting to become audio technician and has a degree in woodworking. We come along quit well even with 18 years of age difference.

Test plust timing the creation of clean internal ribs with bended corners. and Yes I'm going to sand them manually ... all 256 ports with 2 sides ... 512 corners to sand by hand! I want to get this right.

cutting 256 holes takes quit some time and it's only for the internal structure !!!

Piles and Piles of wood

Test to make sure all measurements are respected ... great succes

keeping the rounds ... no idea why but they seem to be nice to keep

after sanding ...

Starting to look like it ... the blue dots will also become vents off course

I hope the project advances over the next 3 days ... I have some holidays so

Woofer sealant

Good stuff tweeters will get custom cut seals made by a friend of mine, cnc cut!

 

[HaerdenC]

Another update of the last few days, a lot has already been done however still a lot to do on this build, it's not like building a pair of speakers, actually I'm building 16 pairs of speakers

Decided to go for the router option ... a lot faster en better

Table mounted it

Detail on the results, after this step hand sanded all of them to be very smooth

glue screw dry repeat

forming of the insides glue screw dry repeat

My brother showing a bag of these ... to give you an impression of the workload we have done over the last day ... he drilled 512 of these ports !!!

Drilled plus sunken screws in top and bottom

Drilling like a boss

first few build top plate still unscrewed

My brother was a big help, having four hands is a big plus

Detail on how the internal pass ports are structured after assembling

Tower is growing

View on the inside

View on prepared screws top panel

These bloks are place holders for assembling

Me and my brother at 23:00 day 3 of the build

Towers are growing

just a nice picture of the internals drying

another one

Goodieeeeeesssss

more gooooodddiiieeees 70 pieces for 88 euro delivered by DHL from China, they look quit ok actually

Foaming

6 square meter of foam

Cutting it was not a nice job to do

This is the stuff it's 50 cm x 1m x 3 cm (tops)

Detail on glue pads

making the internal cabling using Wurth tape

Detail of the front cabling and damping

Detail showing the internal ports

Detail of the rear including position of bass port and damping

making of 32 cable looms with colorcoding

6 hours later

Special cut foams for the tweeters done by a friend of mine

Will continue to post updates.

- 10 cm mid bass speakers will arrive beginning of next week
- waiting on bushes for the speakers as I don't want to dril them directly in the wood ... it's all about the details
- Ordered more cable
- Tweeters are on their way
- only 18 bass ports where in stock rest is coming in today normally
- 2 passive filters for testing each module after assembling also coming in
- still need to decide what to do with the outside ... paint or other options
- filling all holes that are visible and sanding sanding sanding

Things will go slower now as I have to get back to work

Nice to know ... total number of drilled holes ... 2144 !!! 7 holes per unit

 

[compaddict]

Wow!