I just read a thread, where a member stated "It's taken me a while to get there, but I agree with the above" This is what was posted above;
So I decided I would confess something also. In the mid 90s, I was deeeeep into high end car audio, and I found certain very smooth subs just didn't excite me. Regardless of how high end, and low distortion they were. I just knew that certain other subs seemed to have a VERY fast and present leading edge to the bass. Making bass line fret changes visceral. I couldn't understand why some subs did it for me, and some just didn't. Until it was explained to me that I was liking a certain distortion that made the bass that way !
Wait, I am an audiophile ! LOL. I can't like distortion .... But, I still do
So I decided I would confess something also. In the mid 90s, I was deeeeep into high end car audio, and I found certain very smooth subs just didn't excite me. Regardless of how high end, and low distortion they were. I just knew that certain other subs seemed to have a VERY fast and present leading edge to the bass. Making bass line fret changes visceral. I couldn't understand why some subs did it for me, and some just didn't. Until it was explained to me that I was liking a certain distortion that made the bass that way !
Wait, I am an audiophile ! LOL. I can't like distortion .... But, I still do
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I'll have to leave you with this as I think there is more that you want to gather in order to understand what you are actually listening to, and more importantly, enjoying. Speaker distortion is hard to perceive until it gets unpleasant. Fast bass is also known as good transient response and requires a light cone and strong motor. The trade off is a lack of the bottom one or two octaves which in the long run is not a bad thing when trying to reproduce that in a automobile cabin. I think if you read up on what certain drivers offer, you might find that what I say has some truth.
And no, FR is not the end all, it's just a part of the picture.
EQing a cheap driver just makes it sound like a 'more listenable' cheap driver. It doesn't make it sound like it's now worth 150x.
And no, FR is not the end all, it's just a part of the picture.
EQing a cheap driver just makes it sound like a 'more listenable' cheap driver. It doesn't make it sound like it's now worth 150x.
It isn't readily clear how to fix what we don't like. Then we read the right things, have faith, build and become believers after having read the wrong things so many times and for so long.
Interestingly Earl Geddes did some significant studies on non-linear distortion. If I understand correctly he believed this was a major issue just as I and probably many others did. Knowing really changes the direction, the things we choose to do to our gear to make sound better.
Interestingly Earl Geddes did some significant studies on non-linear distortion. If I understand correctly he believed this was a major issue just as I and probably many others did. Knowing really changes the direction, the things we choose to do to our gear to make sound better.
The clarity of bass notes and especially bass transients depends a lot on the overtones. Maybe the ones that you didn't like did not even have more bass extension than the other ones but they did probably have some overemphasis in the low bass making it sound muddy. If the overamphasis is coming from a hi Q resonance then it is even worse. You may probably find out if it is something like that by playing around with an EQ.
Regards
Charles
Regards
Charles
An Interesting experiment Is to listen to a good quality subwoofer (Rel strata 5 In my case) direct, only below say 50hz. Even the fastest, punchiest bass sounds very slow and dull.
On hifi forums, I've heard people say a number of times that adding a super tweeter subjectively Improved the bass.
On hifi forums, I've heard people say a number of times that adding a super tweeter subjectively Improved the bass.
I also noticed this again most recently when I dropped in the SB Satori beryllium into the Rinjani, replacing the SAtori fabric ring dome.
I reckon its not really bass but percussive instruments that has both high bass and audible harmonics into the highs where as a whole the instrument sounds better and in this case, a bass instrument.
To answer a couple of questions, All the subs were tried in the same system, same car. Some of the subs I did not like were highly regarded. I just know some had something I liked, and others I disliked.
To the member who mentioned EQ. I would eq all of the subs in the system properly. All subs were in their own proper enclosures too. When each sub was blended and eqd properly, is when I would evaluate. In this system, all subs were crossed at 70hz.
To the member who mentioned EQ. I would eq all of the subs in the system properly. All subs were in their own proper enclosures too. When each sub was blended and eqd properly, is when I would evaluate. In this system, all subs were crossed at 70hz.
LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG time lurker. First post.
What you're describing doesn't sound like it should be affected by the subwoofer. That bass attack is happening further up the spectrum. I'm wondering if the subs you liked were metal coned (or some other really stiff material). There may have been some out of band breakup that the X/O didn't quite get rid of.
What you're describing doesn't sound like it should be affected by the subwoofer. That bass attack is happening further up the spectrum. I'm wondering if the subs you liked were metal coned (or some other really stiff material). There may have been some out of band breakup that the X/O didn't quite get rid of.
It was Cal Weldon who posted earlier in this thread "Fast bass is also known as good transient response and requires a light cone and strong motor. The trade off is a lack of the bottom one or two octaves which in the long run is not a bad thing when trying to reproduce that in a automobile cabin."
And I think he is probably onto something. I remember liking Alumapro, Boston Acoustics, and others which were not bottom octave monsters. But it isn't just that. Those subs are lightweight cones. The Dynaudio, Image Dynamics, etc which I didn't like were also lightweight cone designs as well. I could tell immediately if I liked subs or not. The ones I didn't were either so smooth that I couldn't really discern the leading edge of bass note changes, or they seemed to slightly keep going once they stopped to reverse. Muddy and late sounding to me. I believe some of this is due to it being the mid 90s. Driver tech has evolved since then, and probably has closed the gap. I know the days of pick either warm or analytical are over, from the 90s.
You bet Pano. That's what I am planning on learning as I go along.
And I think he is probably onto something. I remember liking Alumapro, Boston Acoustics, and others which were not bottom octave monsters. But it isn't just that. Those subs are lightweight cones. The Dynaudio, Image Dynamics, etc which I didn't like were also lightweight cone designs as well. I could tell immediately if I liked subs or not. The ones I didn't were either so smooth that I couldn't really discern the leading edge of bass note changes, or they seemed to slightly keep going once they stopped to reverse. Muddy and late sounding to me. I believe some of this is due to it being the mid 90s. Driver tech has evolved since then, and probably has closed the gap. I know the days of pick either warm or analytical are over, from the 90s.
You bet Pano. That's what I am planning on learning as I go along.
Could be the difference between sealed and ported maybe? (Sealed usually sounds tighter).
Was the Dynaudio a plastic driver? I'm not a fan of plastic woofers (most sound dull to my ears) but crossed over as low as 70hz, I'd be surprised If It was noticeable. Paper Is my preferred material.
If sealed, the other thing could be the QTC chosen. The wrong QTC could give deep bass at the expense of punch or with a peak in the wrong place It could boom - a peak in the right place however, could just give extra punch.
Was the Dynaudio a plastic driver? I'm not a fan of plastic woofers (most sound dull to my ears) but crossed over as low as 70hz, I'd be surprised If It was noticeable. Paper Is my preferred material.
If sealed, the other thing could be the QTC chosen. The wrong QTC could give deep bass at the expense of punch or with a peak in the wrong place It could boom - a peak in the right place however, could just give extra punch.
That a tweeter may improve bass perception with regards to transients is not very surprising since transients by their very nature are high frequency components of the sound.
This becomes immediately obvious if you ever eq'd a kick drum. The part that gives it attack and life is in the 2-4 kHz region.
This becomes immediately obvious if you ever eq'd a kick drum. The part that gives it attack and life is in the 2-4 kHz region.
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