Infinite Baffle Standmount

[diyricky]

Hi,

Some years ago I built these KLS14 World Audio speakers which were designed for small rooms; see attached pdf

Been pleased with their performance in my small home office room, just 8x9 ft, but as the cabinets need refurbishing , thought it might be time to look at upgrading, but have yet to find a modern infinite baffle design , at a reasonalble cost , that uses drive units that are still available , partic here in the UK / Europe.

Is there still such a design around , seems most diy designs and ready made units are all bass reflex which would probably give problems in such a small space ?

 

[fatmarley]

There aren't many sealed designs around. This would be worth a look - LINK. It's a smaller woofer but very high quality.

 

[diyricky]

There aren't many sealed designs around. This would be worth a look - LINK. It's a smaller woofer but very high quality.

Thanks but possibly a little too small, need driving hard ?

However, just after posting here I by chance looked in the Full Range section only to find XRKs 2 way design which might be perfect.
10F/8424 & RS225-8 FAST Ref Monitor

 

[boswald]

I don't know who told you that vented boxes have problems in small rooms, but any speaker could have problems in any room, if its implementation is inappropriate.
The main thing, since you like these but want new, is to keep the baffle step correction low as in what you have, so that when you put them in the same place, the bass doesn't kill you. The design you have has about 1/3 bsc(2db).
Just look for designs where the system output is 2db less than the woofer's own.

That said, XRK's low-crossed 2 way has its crossover near its baffle step, so it is very easy to adjust for a room and placement by adjusting the high range level, and the basic design makes it very easy to use a different woofer, it's simple to stay out of trouble when you cross that low.

 

[diyricky]

I don't know who told you that vented boxes have problems in small rooms, but any speaker could have problems in any room, if its implementation is inappropriate.
The main thing, since you like these but want new, is to keep the baffle step correction low as in what you have, so that when you put them in the same place, the bass doesn't kill you. The design you have has about 1/3 bsc(2db).
Just look for designs where the system output is 2db less than the woofer's own.

That said, XRK's low-crossed 2 way has its crossover near its baffle step, so it is very easy to adjust for a room and placement by adjusting the high range level, and the basic design makes it very easy to use a different woofer, it's simple to stay out of trouble when you cross that low.

Hi,

Thanks for the reply.

Generally have read and been told by dealers that vented boxes are not ideal for small rooms, being told rear vents need to be placed well away from the rear wall and front ported ones can flood with too much bass and blocking the ports can result in a poor sound ....??

Thats why I thought the above KLS14 infinite baffle speaker was a good compromise, and it does seem to give a pleasant even sound though the drive units are a 20 year old design.

One of the biggest problem is finding a reasonably price design using modern drive units that can be purchased here in the uk or readily imported.

I'm no way into the details of speaker design and had to look up your reference to BSC, but am still looking to learn from this site etc.

XRK design does look very interesting, though its really a full range speaker with woofer rather than my conventional two way units.

Though a leap of faith, would assume it will give a better performance, would you say ? or could you suggest any other design that would be suitable ?

cheers

 

[wesayso]

I'm still confused about the naming here, an infinite baffle on a stand.

I think you are looking for a sealed enclosure that can be placed near a wall (no full baffle step compensation, BSC). An infinite baffle would suggest an endless baffle with a driver mounted into it, pretty hard to put that up on a stand. Just thought you should know. It will make searching for what you want a little easier. There probably are enough sealed enclosure designs to pick from.

XRK's design is often called a FAST ("full range and subwoofer technology") or WAW ("woofer assisted wideband").

 

[diyricky]

I'm still confused about the naming here, an infinite baffle on a stand.

I think you are looking for a sealed enclosure that can be placed near a wall (no full baffle step compensation, BSC). An infinite baffle would suggest an endless baffle with a driver mounted into it, pretty hard to put that up on a stand. Just thought you should know. It will make searching for what you want a little easier. There probably are enough sealed enclosure designs to pick from.

XRK's design is often called a FAST ("full range and subwoofer technology") or WAW ("woofer assisted wideband").

Sorry, Yes , do mean Sealed Enclosure, a lot to learn !

 

[Scottmoose]

Generally have read and been told by dealers that vented boxes are not ideal for small rooms,

Because either they are ignorant, or the boxes were intended for freespace positioning. That does not mean that vented boxes are inappropriate for small rooms, just that you need one that is properly designed.

being told rear vents need to be placed well away from the rear wall

Not true. It depends on the alignment of the enclosure, the exact positioning, and (to a point, although in most cases secondary to the first to) the construction materials of the room.

and front ported ones can flood with too much bass

Utter drivel (not by you, by whoever told you that)

and blocking the ports can result in a poor sound ....??

It can. But so can doing a heck of a lot of other things. Alternatively, it can improve things. This is entirely circumstance dependent, and if anybody claims a blanket 'yes / no', you would be well advised to ignore them as they are not competent to be passing comment on matters of acoustic design or behaviour. Likewise, the actual box loading is only one aspect of whether it will be well suited to near-boundary positioning and / or use in a smaller space.

Thats why I thought the above KLS14 infinite baffle speaker was a good compromise, and it does seem to give a pleasant even sound though the drive units are a 20 year old design.

Sealed box. Technically an infinite baffle would be an infinitely wide & tall wall through which the drivers poked. The KLS14 should sound pleasent, it's a reasonably well designed kit of its type, using drivers that are still considered decent, with a slightly declining balance in the HF. And a low[er] Q sealed box like this will naturally tend to do quite well in smaller spaces. That does not, however, mean vented boxes cannot be used.

One of the biggest problem is finding a reasonably price design using modern drive units that can be purchased here in the uk or readily imported.

'twas ever thus. And as a note -the 'modern' drivers in a lot of high quality speakers have been around a lot longer than you might think, and age is no guarantee of quality. Take the Scan D2905/9700. An exceptional tweeter, with a lot of features people would call 'state of the art' if it were introduced today. It was introduced about 25 years ago. And that's just one example.

What budget are we talking about here?

XRK design does look very interesting, though its really a full range speaker with woofer rather than my conventional two way units.

Though a leap of faith, would assume it will give a better performance, would you say ? or could you suggest any other design that would be suitable ?

X's box is a good design of its type. Whether it will give 'better performance' though rather depends on your own preferences & how you define that. I suspect you'll like it, and it should improve on the old WAD kit in many ways, but like all speakers it is a balance of compromises, gaining some attributes at the price of others.

 

[diyricky]

What budget are we talking about here?



X's box is a good design of its type. Whether it will give 'better performance' though rather depends on your own preferences & how you define that. I suspect you'll like it, and it should improve on the old WAD kit in many ways, but like all speakers it is a balance of compromises, gaining some attributes at the price of others.

Hi Scottmoose,

Thanks for your detailed reply, its clearly a minefield for those not in the know.

X's drive units would come out at about £300 depending on the source so that plus the build and XO costs was the kind of figure I was generally thinking of.

At the moment I'm running the original Arcam Solo so expect that limits things to a degree.

I had thought about What HiFis regular favourites like the Monitor Audio Bronze 2 or the Dali Spektor 2 as ready made units, but my above misinformed info put me off them, hence looking for a better diy design.

Now I'm not quiet sure ? would those ready made units be better than what I have now or would something like X's be a worthwhile enough improvement for the time and money to make them ?

 

[boswald]

2x the diameter of a rear port away from the wall is fine, so don't let that bother you.

The thing about a low-crossed 2 way like XRK's, besides easily adjustable bsc, is the use of widerangers that are very nice midranges, should you decide to add a little tweeter, either as a supertweeter, or more conventionally crossed at 2-3k as a 'normal' tweeter.

I would recommend that you read the faq section on Paul Carmody's site. Paul is a natural teacher(less glazing over by the pupil) You might also look at Paul's Hitmakers, pretty much what you are looking for, as long as you are willing to use less exotic-looking drivers, the bsc is about what you have now.

I don't think I would buy a commercial product new w/o a test in my room. A dealer you want to have would let you, he knows how to gain a long term customer.

 

[diyricky]

2x the diameter of a rear port away from the wall is fine, so don't let that bother you.

The thing about a low-crossed 2 way like XRK's, besides easily adjustable bsc, is the use of widerangers that are very nice midranges, should you decide to add a little tweeter, either as a supertweeter, or more conventionally crossed at 2-3k as a 'normal' tweeter.

I would recommend that you read the faq section on Paul Carmody's site. Paul is a natural teacher(less glazing over by the pupil) You might also look at Paul's Hitmakers, pretty much what you are looking for, as long as you are willing to use less exotic-looking drivers, the bsc is about what you have now.

I don't think I would buy a commercial product new w/o a test in my room. A dealer you want to have would let you, he knows how to gain a long term customer.

Thanks for all that; , Yes, think its time to sit back and take in some more detail before deciding.

Those Hitmakers look interesting and the complete kit price from Parts Express so low ! seems I can get them here in the uk via their Ebay store with GSP.
See they also do his Overnight Sensations and Classic2 which he seems very fond of.

Have you by chance ever heard any of those ?

 

[boswald]

The Hitmakers have less bsc, meant to be near a boundary for reinforcement. The OS and Classix2 have more, meant for stand use, so you would have to place them differently than you have what you are using now.

The question is, are you going to put your new speakers in the same position as the old, or are there options? Placement options give you more choices. Tell us about your room and possible placements, we can maybe give you more kinds of choices.

 

[diyricky]

The Hitmakers have less bsc, meant to be near a boundary for reinforcement. The OS and Classix2 have more, meant for stand use, so you would have to place them differently than you have what you are using now.

The question is, are you going to put your new speakers in the same position as the old, or are there options? Placement options give you more choices. Tell us about your room and possible placements, we can maybe give you more kinds of choices.

Hi,

My current speakers are on sand filled metal stands as the diagram hopefully shows.

Cannot really see any other practical position and the tall cabinet top has the amp etc.

The Hitmakers do suggest a quality sound, but wonder how they would be at low volume as when working in the home office the music is generally on low which my existing speakers seem to handle fairly well.
Its only when sitting in the easy chair that they are at a good volume to properly appreciate the music.

The Classic 2s seem to be one of his favourites and as he says, they also handle low volumes well.
Almost tempted to try them, but build both versions of his cabinets to see first hand how front and rear ports perform in my room .. ? or would you say thats a waste of time ?

thanks

 

[boswald]

I'm sorry, I wasn't clear, when I said stand-mounted I meant away from other boundaries as well as the floor. That said, there is nothing illegal, immoral, or unethical about turning down the bass a little.
You may also find that it all works out, as one is near a corner, which will boost bass, and one is by a door, which will cut bass. Which is probably what's going on now.
If you have too much for you, stuff first the port of the corner one. Try three levels, rolled sock(total), rolled fiberfill(mid), and 'as it comes' fiberfill(least).
If you prefer the lighter plugs, lengthen the port. This will lower the tuning(and volume slightly) which will make the rolloff earlier and gentler(more like sealed). On the other hand, you may only have to get the edge of the boxes in front of the corners of that central piece to make enough difference.

Remember, the room is the gorilla, and we're only talking about a couple db bump, so don't hesitate on the Classix2s, while I have heard more originals than 2s, they both give you that byproduct-consuming grin.

You could probably build both of Paul's designs(Clssx&Htmkr) at about the budget you were considering for one pair. And you would not be sad.

 

[system7]

How it works... why big speakers sound terrible in small rooms. Room gain.

Upgrading these speakers. Well maybe a a 12dB/octave bass filter might sound better than the 6dB/octave current one.

I do stuff like this. Last image. Not a million miles away, eh?

We could do that. Anyway, my friend, upgrading is often just a question of swapping one set of problems for another. Here's something about your tweeter. Raven-TA (Dayton RS180s with Peerless H26TG45-06) - AmpsLab

 

[planet10]

Execution is important, very important. It is way easier to do a bad reflex enclosure than a good one. Sealed boxes — if you can find a driver that works decently sealed — are more forgiving.

I have long ago given up on the typical cone+dome speaker. I either use a full-range — the best units can give outstanding performance — or a WAW (Woofer Assisted Widerange) like the XRK example mentioned earlier. The low crossover point has huge advantages wrt getting the XO out of the way. A typical cone + dome puts much less emphasis on the high-range, th etweeter typically covering 2-3 octaves and the rest left to the midbass. A WAW typically have the bass driver covering 3.5-4 octaves and the midtweeter the rest. And a good fullrange becomes even better when relieved of bass duty — do not dismiss the concept.

As to a suitable FR for your needs, have a look at the Mark Audio Alpair 10.3 or 10p (metal or paper cones respectively — £175 including VAT). Scott has designed a nice simple bass reflex for it (design freely available) and i have a whole family of more exotic vented enclosures that take a bit (or a lot) more effort to build.

http://www.kjfaudio.com/product-category/drivers/markaudio-drivers/
http://p10hifi.net/FAL/downloads/CGR-MarKen103p-plan-040414.pdf

dave

 

[diyricky]

. Here's something about your tweeter. Raven-TA (Dayton RS180s with Peerless H26TG45-06) - AmpsLab

Hi System 7,

Some interesting ideas and ironically very true as just yesterday I got given some old Tannoy Mercury MX2 to actually try against my KLS14s and they really showed up the lack of high end clarity from the KSL14.

The question is, should I spend time and money with crossovers and drastic tweeter hacks or look to something new ?

As always for a relative diy newbie its so difficult to know which route to take not having heard any of the diy designs and even less chance of doing so here in the UK , unlike the US guys, and don't think I have the yeara left or the money to be building loads of different ones before finding the right one

 

[diyricky]

As to a suitable FR for your needs, have a look at the Mark Audio Alpair 10.3 or 10p (metal or paper cones respectively — £175 including VAT). Scott has designed a nice simple bass reflex for it (design freely available) and i have a whole family of more exotic vented enclosures that take a bit (or a lot) more effort to build.

http://www.kjfaudio.com/product-category/drivers/markaudio-drivers/
http://p10hifi.net/FAL/downloads/CGR-MarKen103p-plan-040414.pdf

dave

Hi Planet10,

Thanks for your interesting reply, I have never heard a full range speaker though seems they are gaining a greater following than years ago.

The Alpair 10.p driver and that plan do look deceptively simple and relatively low cost.

Will have to look up more on the full range units as seems you have done many posts about them.

Not wishing to spark a forum contest, and I know its a piece of string question, but could you give me some idea of how you see that 10p in say respect of XRKs current FAST system and say Paul Carmodys Classic II two way and if you think the 10p would perform well in a small 8ft x 9 ft room.

Thanks

 

[phivates]

Some other bits to consider: diffraction and thickened ferrofluid.

 

[planet10]

Not wishing to spark a forum contest, and I know its a piece of string question, but could you give me some idea of how you see that 10p in say respect of XRKs current FAST system and say Paul Carmodys Classic II two way and if you think the 10p would perform well in a small 8ft x 9 ft room.

For a FAST (we are starting to make WAW a substitute acronym) You would probably look at a smaller FR than the A10p, better dispersion and mid/top coming along with the smaller driver. The heavy lifting will be done by the woofers. In our builds we have used A7.3 (4”) & FF85wk (3”) and next up is the Alpair 5.2 (3”).

~$600 in drivers (~$1000 EnABLed as we used them). A7.3eN + 2 A12pWeN (in ML-TL)

~$200 in drivers (~$500 EnABLed as we used them). FF85wKeN + 2 Silver Flute W14eN (in ML-TL)

We are working on an A10p (5.25”) WAW with 2 A12pw, but the goal of it is to play really loud in larger rooms. It is modular so that we can substitute midTweeters.

dave