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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

Flat frequency response speaker has been developed
Flat frequency response speaker has been developed
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Old 11th January 2018, 08:27 PM   #1
charlie2 is offline charlie2  England
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Default Flat frequency response speaker has been developed

Flat frequency speaker has been developed

OK not strictly true



But if it was by using dsp for xover functions only and not for equalizaiton.

Could it be equed for personal taste and any given room size (wihin reason)
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Old 11th January 2018, 08:57 PM   #2
CharlieLaub is offline CharlieLaub  United States
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Flat frequency response speaker has been developed
Flat on what axis, or axes?

Meh, sure you can use DSP to make the frequency response perfectly flat, whether only by crossover filter function or with EQ as well. See for example the Ultimate Equalizer by Bodzio Software. It's no problem to do this now.

The real question is whether you have made the loudspeaker "better". While the frequency response can be made perfectly flat on one axis, you do this by adjusting the input power (EQ-ing) across the frequency band. This will influence all frequencies in the same way. The result is that you have made only one axis "flat" and probably screwed up the response (made it worse) on most other axes. That is no improvement!

This is one reason why a loudspeaker with a dipole radiation pattern is very intriguing. If carefully designed, it will have nearly the same frequency response on ALL axes, at least much more than other types of loudspeaker systems. In that case you can equalize one axis (e.g. forward, towards the listener) and all axes will be equalized in more or less the same way. It also makes it possible to listen to the loudspeaker far off axis, and the tonal balance will remain pretty much the same. These are some of the reasons why this type of loudspeaker is all that I try to design and build these days.

It is also possible to have a similar effect with certain horn loaded systems, as long as the directivity remains nearly constant. The problem is that this is really not possible below about 500Hz, because pretty much all direct-radiators in a box become a monopole below that frequency. The best you can hope to achieve is a smoothly CHANGING directivity of this type of loudspeaker, and that is not really as good as the dipole, which can have essentially flat directivity and power response over a very wide frequency range approaching the full audio spectrum, 20-20k.
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Last edited by CharlieLaub; 11th January 2018 at 08:59 PM.
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Old 11th January 2018, 09:17 PM   #3
AllenB is offline AllenB  Australia
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Originally Posted by CharlieLaub View Post
The problem is that this is really not possible below about 500Hz,
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Old 11th January 2018, 09:44 PM   #4
BlueWizard is offline BlueWizard  United States
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Yes, you can make speakers FLAT if they are well designed, or you have Room EQ, but ... do you actually like FLAT sounding speakers (referring to response, not the general sound).

Many even high quality speakers have a Bass Bump in them ...why?... because people like bass. Also because that the same measured volume level, different frequencies don't sound the same perceived loudness. High Frequencies tend to sound louder at the same measured volume.

Rather that trying to achieve some theoretical standard, try to buy or build speakers that you like.

What you really want from a speaker, is that no particular frequencies stand out in an unbalanced and noticeable way. You don't want the speaker to be flat, you want to perceive it as sounding flat and balanced even if it is not technically flat.

Then we have the matter of DEEP personal taste. I can't tell you how many systems I've encountered in people's home where the Bass and Treble are cranked to the MAX. Fine, I'm OK with that; if the user is happy then I am happy.

There are the old style Graphic EQ devices, though today this is mostly don't in electronics and software. But a mutli-slider Graphic EQ is only of value if you have some way of testing the room response so you know what specifically needs to be EQ'd. A vast majority (virtually ALL) people I've encountered that had a Graphic EQ simply used it as an extension of the volume control.

Further, let's not try to use EQ to compensate for an acoustically BAD Room. Good EQ can make a good room better, but it simply can NOT make a Bad Room Good. If you are having problems with your sound, then you need to dump some common sense and some money into the room itself.

So, in summary, buy or build speakers you like the sound of, and forget the technical details.

But then ... that's just my opinion.

Steve/bluewizard

Last edited by BlueWizard; 11th January 2018 at 09:47 PM.
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Old 11th January 2018, 10:03 PM   #5
charlie2 is offline charlie2  England
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueWizard View Post
Yes, you can make speakers FLAT if they are well designed, or you have Room EQ, but ... do you actually like FLAT sounding speakers (referring to response, not the general sound).

Many even high quality speakers have a Bass Bump in them ...why?... because people like bass. Also because that the same measured volume level, different frequencies don't sound the same perceived loudness. High Frequencies tend to sound louder at the same measured volume.

Rather that trying to achieve some theoretical standard, try to buy or build speakers that you like.

What you really want from a speaker, is that no particular frequencies stand out in an unbalanced and noticeable way. You don't want the speaker to be flat, you want to perceive it as sounding flat and balanced even if it is not technically flat.

Then we have the matter of DEEP personal taste. I can't tell you how many systems I've encountered in people's home where the Bass and Treble are cranked to the MAX. Fine, I'm OK with that; if the user is happy then I am happy.

There are the old style Graphic EQ devices, though today this is mostly don't in electronics and software. But a mutli-slider Graphic EQ is only of value if you have some way of testing the room response so you know what specifically needs to be EQ'd. A vast majority (virtually ALL) people I've encountered that had a Graphic EQ simply used it as an extension of the volume control.

Further, let's not try to use EQ to compensate for an acoustically BAD Room. Good EQ can make a good room better, but it simply can NOT make a Bad Room Good. If you are having problems with your sound, then you need to dump some common sense and some money into the room itself.

So, in summary, buy or build speakers you like the sound of, and forget the technical details.

But then ... that's just my opinion.

Steve/bluewizard
You blew me away with that response

the reasoning behind my hypohetical flat speaker been built wihout EQ is that personal taste can be tailored at any frequency or house curve implemented (by reduction of EQ but not bumped up)

Last edited by charlie2; 11th January 2018 at 10:12 PM.
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Old 11th January 2018, 10:07 PM   #6
scottjoplin is offline scottjoplin  Wales
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So you filter in the crossover then turn the volume up?
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Old 11th January 2018, 10:19 PM   #7
scottjoplin is offline scottjoplin  Wales
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueWizard View Post
Many even high quality speakers have a Bass Bump in them ...why?...
Because they are usually resonant and they're tuned that way......ok because people like it, but also because it's a way of getting cheap bass extension
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Old 11th January 2018, 10:39 PM   #8
mark100 is offline mark100  United States
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Originally Posted by CharlieLaub View Post
Flat on what axis, or axes?

Meh, sure you can use DSP to make the frequency response perfectly flat, whether only by crossover filter function or with EQ as well. See for example the Ultimate Equalizer by Bodzio Software. It's no problem to do this now.

The real question is whether you have made the loudspeaker "better". While the frequency response can be made perfectly flat on one axis, you do this by adjusting the input power (EQ-ing) across the frequency band. This will influence all frequencies in the same way. The result is that you have made only one axis "flat" and probably screwed up the response (made it worse) on most other axes. That is no improvement!
Could not agree more !!!!

For illustration of how easy it is to tune almost perfectly to a SPOT, check out the graphs below. Shameless tuning of a 4-way proto to a single SPOT.....

First graph is the passbands...those are driver response, not electrical !
Second, mag and phase of the full 4-way.
Third, impulse and step.
Last, spectogram....

They look good to me, but they mean nothing...unless they hold up off axis... I mean, for heavens sake look at the rig setup....what's the odds of off axis looking good ? lol
Attached Images
File Type: jpg REW2 passbands.jpg (83.1 KB, 358 views)
File Type: jpg REW2 4way transfer.jpg (65.9 KB, 350 views)
File Type: jpg REW2 4way step.jpg (62.3 KB, 349 views)
File Type: jpg REW2 4way specto.jpg (88.7 KB, 347 views)
File Type: jpg 4 way floor R.jpg (192.9 KB, 352 views)
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Old 11th January 2018, 11:01 PM   #9
adason is offline adason  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by charlie2 View Post
Flat frequency speaker has been developed

OK not strictly true



But if it was by using dsp for xover functions only and not for equalizaiton.

Could it be equed for personal taste and any given room size (wihin reason)
Have been doing that with each of my systems. There is lot more to it than flat fr response.
What about phase?
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Old 11th January 2018, 11:44 PM   #10
andy2 is offline andy2  United States
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Well you may be able to eq. flat frequency response, but you in the process introduce unwanted phase-shift and mess up the time domain response. The more complicated xover, the more likely you'll have ringing in the time domain.
Besides I don't think flat frequency response is ideal to start with. I actually don't think our ears want flat frequency response from speakers.
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