Go Back   Home > Forums > >
Home Forums Rules Articles diyAudio Store Blogs Gallery Wiki Register Donations FAQ Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

Flat frequency response speaker has been developed
Flat frequency response speaker has been developed
Please consider donating to help us continue to serve you.

Ads on/off / Custom Title / More PMs / More album space / Advanced printing & mass image saving
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 12th January 2018, 12:09 AM   #11
BlueWizard is offline BlueWizard  United States
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by scottjoplin View Post
Because they are usually resonant and they're tuned that way......ok because people like it, but also because it's a way of getting cheap bass extension

I can't (and won't) argue that point. But outside of production studios, why is it that people like Not-Flat speakers?

Also, flat where, and by that I mean if the are flat in a anechoic chamber, they are probably not going to be flat in your room.

Of course, in room, you have Room EQ, but does Room EQ improve an existing good room, or is it a desperate attempt to make right a clearly bad room?

Also, though anecdotal, many people use Room EQ for Movies, but turn it off for Muisic because they feel the music sounds better. To each his own, but that implies something.

Rather than searching for a technical standard, get speakers that you like the sound of. That's all I'm saying. Even speakers that you like the sound of could probably still do with some Room EQ, but that is not to change the speaker, rather it is to correct the room.

Steve/bluewizard
  Reply With Quote
Old 12th January 2018, 12:16 AM   #12
mark100 is offline mark100  United States
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by andy2 View Post
Well you may be able to eq. flat frequency response, but you in the process introduce unwanted phase-shift and mess up the time domain response. The more complicated xover, the more likely you'll have ringing in the time domain.
Besides I don't think flat frequency response is ideal to start with. I actually don't think our ears want flat frequency response from speakers.
Hi Andy, my take.............

You're making many assumptions than IME don't hold true with frequency and phase response. IME, mag right = phase right.

Whether we like how our our system sounds flat or not depends more on how it was recorded than anything else.....assuming our system is flat

Last edited by mark100; 12th January 2018 at 12:21 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12th January 2018, 01:01 AM   #13
scottjoplin is offline scottjoplin  Wales
diyAudio Member
 
scottjoplin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Penrhyndeudraeth
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueWizard View Post
Of course, in room, you have Room EQ, but does Room EQ improve an existing good room, or is it a desperate attempt to make right a clearly bad room?
I think most rooms are too small for the levels people listen at, turning the volume down can reduce many room induced problems
__________________
Woofer Assisted Wideband is the New Testament renounce the anachronistic acronym FAST
  Reply With Quote
Old 12th January 2018, 03:06 AM   #14
planet10 is offline planet10  Canada
frugal-phile(tm)
diyAudio Moderator
 
planet10's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Victoria, BC, NA, Sol III
Flat frequency response speaker has been developed
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueWizard View Post
Many even high quality speakers have a Bass Bump in them ...why?... because people like bass.
Witness overcooked BSC filters, flattening the on-axis and bumping up the power response at the same time.

dave
__________________
community sites t-linespeakers.org, frugal-horn.com, frugal-phile.com ........ commercial site planet10-HiFi
p10-hifi forum here at diyA
  Reply With Quote
Old 12th January 2018, 12:01 PM   #15
scottjoplin is offline scottjoplin  Wales
diyAudio Member
 
scottjoplin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Penrhyndeudraeth
Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlieLaub View Post
This is one reason why a loudspeaker with a dipole radiation pattern is very intriguing. If carefully designed, it will have nearly the same frequency response on ALL axes, at least much more than other types of loudspeaker systems. In that case you can equalize one axis (e.g. forward, towards the listener) and all axes will be equalized in more or less the same way. It also makes it possible to listen to the loudspeaker far off axis, and the tonal balance will remain pretty much the same. These are some of the reasons why this type of loudspeaker is all that I try to design and build these days.
The reasons I became interested in dipole speakers were, radiation pattern, room interaction, lack of box resonances etc....the usual.....
After living with them for a while and experimenting with positioning to get the desired reflections etc I found I enjoyed the wide, almost lack of, sweet spot. This got me thinking about omnidirectional speakers and whether I'd enjoy them even more. I've held off though because it would mean some kind of enclosure, so I find your post interesting since as I move around the room I find the set-up I have is almost omnidirectional.
__________________
Woofer Assisted Wideband is the New Testament renounce the anachronistic acronym FAST
  Reply With Quote
Old 12th January 2018, 02:12 PM   #16
Juhazi is offline Juhazi  Finland
diyAudio Member
 
Juhazi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Jyväskylä, Finland
EQ can help a lot to get the desired sound of any speaker, it's basic response curve is irrelevant (unsell it shows sharp dicontinuities that tell about major problems). But if speaker has problems in directivity and room interaction, task is too much asked.
To get desired sound with nice spectral balance, use low Q adjustments, 1-½octave bands and don't use measurement mic but just listen!

If you then measure RTA response at listening spot, I bet that it is not flat !
__________________
AINOgradient speaker project

Last edited by Juhazi; 12th January 2018 at 02:17 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12th January 2018, 02:32 PM   #17
Joshcpct is offline Joshcpct  Germany
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: near luxembourg
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark100 View Post
Could not agree more !!!!

For illustration of how easy it is to tune almost perfectly to a SPOT, check out the graphs below. Shameless tuning of a 4-way proto to a single SPOT.....

First graph is the passbands...those are driver response, not electrical !
Second, mag and phase of the full 4-way.
Third, impulse and step.
Last, spectogram....

They look good to me, but they mean nothing...unless they hold up off axis... I mean, for heavens sake look at the rig setup....what's the odds of off axis looking good ? lol
Hi mark

That looks pretty horrible to me

Typical modern noob playing on the phase. A dangerous tool to give into peoples hands who think you can EQ phase like the magnitude to a flat line.
Look at the IR ringing, the bass is 10-20ms ahead of peak. The drums will sound horrible distorted like a synthi
Of course this is nicely hidden away on the step response

The perfect ideal phase of a speaker is not flat !
Its causal according minimum phase.

Let alone the huge Y-axis scale of magnitude, with 1/6oct smoothing its not a revolution. Nevertheless, thats ideal to start with for designing properly merging XO. The tilting & room-eq comes on the complete system afterwards on top. EQ as odd as u like, but the single drivers need to cooperate linear into a flat sum. Otherwise they wont merge into one harmonic coherent point. Thats what most fullrange-users complain about. That guy wont have any incoherence issues.
But lot of different ones

cheers
Josh

Last edited by Joshcpct; 12th January 2018 at 02:34 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12th January 2018, 03:33 PM   #18
mark100 is offline mark100  United States
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joshcpct View Post
Hi mark

That looks pretty horrible to me

Typical modern noob playing on the phase. A dangerous tool to give into peoples hands who think you can EQ phase like the magnitude to a flat line.
Look at the IR ringing, the bass is 10-20ms ahead of peak. The drums will sound horrible distorted like a synthi
Of course this is nicely hidden away on the step response

The perfect ideal phase of a speaker is not flat !
Its causal according minimum phase.


cheers
Josh
Hi Josh, fun !

Quick question...where/how do you see bass is 10-20ms ahead of peak?

OK, perfect ideal phase of a speaker?

Well, IMO we should start with what we think the perfect speaker is...
...which I think would be one full range driver extending beyond audibility both ends
...which I believe the textbooks say would have flat phase..

I don't know what to think yet about minimum phase roll off down low.
I know if a real life kick drum gets whacked....it's the initial rise of all frequencies that have to be in sync...which is linear phase.

I know with kick drum playback thru causal minimum phase, that bottom end phase roll-off will make higher freqs arrive earlier than low...group delay.
This seems like bad timing to me.

I know people talk about bass pre-ringing when deviating from minimum phase...
...yet minimum phase could also be thought of as high freq pre-arrival.

Which is worse? I dunno... I do know when I experiment with this I can't begin to tell indoors for all the known room interaction reasons.
Outdoors I keep leaning to flat phase all the way down...

Cheers indeed, mark
  Reply With Quote
Old 12th January 2018, 07:16 PM   #19
plasnu is offline plasnu  United States
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: NY USA
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueWizard View Post
I can't (and won't) argue that point. But outside of production studios, why is it that people like Not-Flat speakers?
All the commercial recordings are mastered for "average home listening environment" which is a bit bass heavy. If you have a flat response speaker made for some kind of lab work, all of them should sound different from what was intended.

Last edited by plasnu; 12th January 2018 at 07:19 PM.
  Reply With Quote

Reply


Flat frequency response speaker has been developedHide this!Advertise here!
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Why the emphasis on flat speaker response? jmikes Multi-Way 46 8th August 2017 02:31 AM
dull sound, but flat frequency response up to 20kHz ABO Solid State 35 19th February 2015 10:37 AM
Flat FR, Flat Power Response, in-phase crossover? RockLeeEV Multi-Way 15 7th February 2012 08:07 PM
New Flat Speakers Developed jkeny Multi-Way 9 18th April 2009 10:28 PM
speaker frequency response sardonx Multi-Way 8 3rd December 2003 12:30 AM


New To Site? Need Help?

All times are GMT. The time now is 01:26 AM.


Search Engine Optimisation provided by DragonByte SEO (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Resources saved on this page: MySQL 14.29%
vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright ©1999-2018 diyAudio
Wiki