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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

DIY speakers for Audio(phile) Cafe Bar...Need help and support!
DIY speakers for Audio(phile) Cafe Bar...Need help and support!
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Old 12th January 2018, 07:48 PM   #61
AllenB is offline AllenB  Australia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueWizard View Post
In my opinion, you need Sweet speakers, nothing to bright.
Yes. When eating and relaxing it mustn't take your attention by force, but band limiting a bad design is not enough.

Diffraction is an attention getter, as can be wall reflections and inconsistent response. This IMO points to carefully controlled directivity.
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Old 12th January 2018, 07:53 PM   #62
Pano is offline Pano  United States
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DIY speakers for Audio(phile) Cafe Bar...Need help and support!
Quote:
Originally Posted by zmyrna View Post
Is there any modern production horn that can get close to WEs at least sonically?
Nothing I know of in the in the genre. There is a guy named Antonio IIRC in Italy who used to build replicas of the WE15. He stopped a few years back. But have a look at the Sato horn thread here, those were just built. Not as big as the 15 foot horn, but still dramatic.
Western Electric 15A Small SATO horn

For our big temporary system in Paris it was from bottom up:
  1. Onken W bass (twin Altec 15)
  2. WE 15 horn, with Westrex driver
  3. Iwata horn with TAD driver
  4. JBL tweeter.
  5. Passive crossover.

A big system like that will sound amazing and get you a lot of talk, because the parts are already legendary. An ideal for a space the size of a cafe or bar..

That said, Cask's suggestion of Synergy horns is a great one. And the red paint is killer. The SH-50 is very, very good. It does not look spectacular in black, but with a wild paint job it might. Well behaved off axis and will image like a demon. Obviously built for large spaces. They play down low enough to make your choice of a sub easy. Or the SH-60 for less vertical energy. Maybe ask Tom if adding wings to the horn would have any advantage. Passive crossover here, too, which makes amplifier rolling fun.
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Old 17th January 2018, 05:56 PM   #63
zmyrna is online now zmyrna  United Kingdom
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Originally Posted by BlueWizard View Post
In my opinion, you need Sweet speakers, nothing to bright. <snip>
Thanks for chiming in, Steve.
London is not my first choice actually.
It is too big, too crowded and too noisy.
Typical clientele is large groups of young office workers drinking lager and shouting.

I will try to keep the equipment cost low by DIYing the speakers and acoustic treatments. Source will be a computer (lossless). Amps will be good quality class D (icepower or Hypex).

I will play full albums during cafe hours. Live performances, remix artists, DJs are possible in the evening.
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Old 17th January 2018, 06:07 PM   #64
zmyrna is online now zmyrna  United Kingdom
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Originally Posted by AllenB View Post
Yes. When eating and relaxing it mustn't take your attention by force, but band limiting a bad design is not enough.

Diffraction is an attention getter, as can be wall reflections and inconsistent response. This IMO points to carefully controlled directivity.
Low diffraction + High Directionality = YES
Highly directional but also wide coverage
Horn, waveguide, open baffle, cardioid all considered
Acoustic treatment at early reflection points (for music) also on room corners and ceiling (customer noise, talking etc).

Attention to detail: everything picked and arranged for low ambient noise (espresso equipment, dishes, cutlery, table surfaces, shoes etc.)
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Old 17th January 2018, 07:06 PM   #65
BlueWizard is offline BlueWizard  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zmyrna View Post
Thanks for chiming in, Steve.
London is not my first choice actually.
It is too big, too crowded and too noisy.
Typical clientele is large groups of young office workers drinking lager and shouting.
Location (city) doesn't matter that much as long as it has enough clientele to keep the business going.

As to who comes, I think that will be dictated by the music you play. Jazz/Blues doesn't usually attract a rowdy crowd.

Quote:
I will try to keep the equipment cost low by DIYing the speakers and acoustic treatments. Source will be a computer (lossless). Amps will be good quality class D (icepower or Hypex).
Here I would suggest you proceed with caution. Keep in mind that commercial speaker makers have huge engineering and testing resources backing them up. It is hard for a DIY builder to compete with that unless they have significant experience, or are choosing proven designs.

Many of the suggestions made, and examples given, were insanely expensive. We would not expect you to go that far unless you happen to be a millionaire. But at this stage you do need to think very seriously about budget. £500 is not going to do it even with DIY. Likely a decent system is going to cost £2000 to £3000, though there are some possible short cuts.

For example, a Hi-FI Pre-Amp with Class-D PA/Studio Power Amps. With Studio Power amps you can get high power and very good performance for a pretty reasonable price, but still not cheap. A good Stereo Amp is going to run about £750 to £1500(though it can certainly go higher), but a good Studio Power Amp can run between £200 and £500 depending on how much power you feel you need.

Quote:
I will play full albums during cafe hours. Live performances, remix artists, DJs are possible in the evening.
Now you've added additional complications on the assumption you are going to provide equipment for all these uses. Perhaps a Jazz Band doesn't need much in the area of equipment, but they will need a PA if there is a vocalist. That means PA speakers, PA Mixer, and a decent Microphone. Likely that is going to be separate from the Hi-Fi Music equipment, though there could be some overlap.

A DJ, depending on how he works, could need a DJ Mixer, though many DJ can provide their own mixer, decks (turntables), CD Players, and Streaming source. If they rely on Streaming, they probably have their own Play Lists set up. But when you consider a DJ, consider the type of music they usually play. You don't want pounding Techno/EDM in a Jazz Cafe. Or... maybe you do, that's purely up to you.

It will help when you have some ideas about the Venue. Once you have the room, we can work on what is possible, and ideal within that room. Until then we are just speculating.

Steve/bluewizard

Last edited by BlueWizard; 17th January 2018 at 07:12 PM.
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Old 17th January 2018, 09:23 PM   #66
BlueWizard is offline BlueWizard  United States
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If you are going to go with DIY speakers, then best to go with proven designs.

For big speakers, consider these.
Home page DIY Sound Group

Here are some of the larger designs -
The Intrusive 1899 DIY Sound Group
Elusive 1099 DIY Sound Group
Cinema 10 Max DIY Sound Group

You can get the Driver/Crossover Kit, or you can get Driver/Crossover/Front Panel kit, or in some cases you can by the complete kit with cabinets, and in other cases, you can simply by the parts list and plans.

Though until we have some sense of the specific room, we are all just speculating.

Steve/bluewizard
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Old 17th January 2018, 09:28 PM   #67
globalplayer is offline globalplayer  Germany
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Port area looks severely compromised on those.
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Old 17th January 2018, 09:34 PM   #68
BlueWizard is offline BlueWizard  United States
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Design compromises are ALWAYS made. That's just the way it is.
I suspect he is referring to the fact that there are SIX smaller ports as opposed to 1 or 2 larger ports.
As long as the cross-sectional area, and the port depth create the correct resonance, I don't see it as much of a compromise.

Steve/bluewizard

Last edited by BlueWizard; 17th January 2018 at 09:37 PM.
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Old 17th January 2018, 10:09 PM   #69
globalplayer is offline globalplayer  Germany
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What about port/air velocity?
Losses?
Chuffing/noises/distortion?
For those PA woofers you want to have at least 1/3 Sd for port area, preferably more.
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Old Yesterday, 09:52 AM   #70
chris661 is offline chris661  United Kingdom
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PA woofers often have short Xmax, so you don't need so much. The Eminence Sigma 18"s are an example of this. Something nicer (top-end Faital Pro, B&C, etc) would need more area if you want maximum output.

Chris
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