Visaton W200S + TW70

[robert1111]

But what about the ht-22. It is only 10W rms. If I cross it around 2000 hz. I copied the MAX SPL graph from boxsim. But I´m not sure if I understand it right. Does that mean, it is comfortable at same power levels as the W200s?

 

[robert1111]

I can't see a good reason NOT to use Boxsim.

With the nominally 4 ohm W200S, the series filter looks promising. I happen to have the 8 ohm version (6 ohms DCR).

A fourth order filter on the 7 ohm TW70 tweeter and some impedance correction on a second order bass looks good too. I have built something close to this circuit and it sounds very good. Substituting the 6 ohm Monacor HT-22, which is a better sounding tweeter IMO, hardly needs any adjustment. You might give it a slightly more rising top end to allow for the fact it is flatter than the TW70.

Yes, been reading all of your posts that I could find about those drivers. Tried to simulate the crossovers etc. I would like to cross them somewhere around 2000 hz. Mainly because the designer himself told that the tw70 should be crossed over before 3000 hz, because it sounds best. He did not say exactly where, just before. It was in some german forum. And the 2000-2500 region seems to come out every time I try something new. But I´m still not quite sure, if I should be satisfied with the phase response. I have no experience, and every post in here I see has better phase, and every build I look in the Visaton boxsim project site, is worse.

 

[gfiandy]

I thought I would see what happens if you combine your initial crossover with the HT22 as suggested. I scanned the file into Vituix CAD from the files I created for the W200S and found some measurements from a foreign language site where they had measure the HT22 you can see the source files below as well as the simulation with your existing crossover. As suggested it comes out a bit brighter.


I will see if I can find a smother solution.

 

[gfiandy]

Had a bit of a play. This is the best I have come up with. However it currently includes no baffle simulation or box simulation. My concern with this is it pushes the HT22 really hard but if you don't you get a large variance in the off axis response as the dispersion pattern goes from Narrow to wide at the Woofer to tweeter crossover.

 

[robert1111]

Hey. I did make a simulation with ht22. The last picture is ht22. Not a frequency graph, but max spl, I don't know how to read it. I also made vituixcad simulation with graph from boxsim (w200s), and added the manufacturer graph of ht22. I know it is still labeled as tw70. I just couldnt get a better phase and frequency good enough, so I havent posted those yet, because I'm not satisfied.

 

[gfiandy]

Sorry I did not intend to upset you. I will leave you to get on.

 

[robert1111]

Nono, I'm not upset. I just tried to explain what I have been doing so you guys don't think I'm not interested enought. You are are very helpful, and I thank you for that.

 

[gfiandy]

But what about the ht-22. It is only 10W rms. If I cross it around 2000 hz. I copied the MAX SPL graph from boxsim. But I´m not sure if I understand it right. Does that mean, it is comfortable at same power levels as the W200s?

The MAX SPL graph is derived from the linear excursion entered for the tweeter. I could not find any data for the HT22 linear excursion. Where did you get the data from and what did you enter. A typical value for a cone tweeter would be 0.25mm but I have no idea what the HT22 actually does.


If you have entered correct linear excursion then your reading of the graph is correct the tweeter has close to the same excursion limit as the bass driver.


Excursion limit is not the same as the power limit as you can see the tweeter will be subject to an instantaneous power of 100W. So the tweeter will be able to deal with the anticipated excursion however in prolonged use it might still exceed the power limitation as it will over heat or the current at 100W might cause the tweeter wire to fuse.

 

[system7]

I've built many versions of the 8 inch plus 2" cone tweeter over the years. I've done second order around 2.5kHz, but it sounds a bit distorted to me.

I've also tried some notches on the bass around 6kHz, but again, find them fatiguing and hard.

I can't see any reason to use a 4 ohm bass. Why give your amp a difficult load?

This sort of thing is incredibly simple, but sounds good. Should work with almost any well behaved 8 inch 8 ohm paper bass. The TW70 and HT-22 are almost interchangeable on filter. Just adjust level to taste. The negative polarity around 3.5kHz crossover is just a great BBC trick that makes everything fall into place.

A very good speaker. Good enough that I can hardly justify doing any more work on it. Enjoying Chris Rea tonight. "Looking for the Summer."

 

[Joel Wesseling]

I've built many versions of the 8 inch plus 2" cone tweeter over the years. I've done second order around 2.5kHz, but it sounds a bit distorted to me.

I've also tried some notches on the bass around 6kHz, but again, find them fatiguing and hard.

I can't see any reason to use a 4 ohm bass. Why give your amp a difficult load?

This sort of thing is incredibly simple, but sounds good. Should work with almost any well behaved 8 inch 8 ohm paper bass. The TW70 and HT-22 are almost interchangeable on filter. Just adjust level to taste. The negative polarity around 3.5kHz crossover is just a great BBC trick that makes everything fall into place.

A very good speaker. Good enough that I can hardly justify doing any more work on it. Enjoying Chris Rea tonight. "Looking for the Summer."

That woofer doesn't appear to be W200S. Maybe older version or something?

I did box sims with a few Visaton 8 inch, and W200s looks nice with only mild rise towards 100hz in approx 20 -25L box, and goes pretty low, so i like that one, but Solen doesn't carry it.

Just wondering because maybe it could be a different model that works well around 100Hz in 20 -25L

 

[system7]

If you had read the whole thread you would know I have already discussed a circuit specific and suitable for the Visaton drivers:

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/317015-visaton-w200s-tw70-2.html#post5303698

At some point you have to just get on with it. You might even find some components need slight adjustment to your taste and the room acoustic and placement. I also do circuits that tend to work with most well-behaved drivers. This, I feel is a useful approach for diy. We can't always get exactly what we want, so compromise a little.

If you have a promising equivalent driver, we can look at what adjustments might be good. Loudness adjustment, reflex or closed box, adjusting impedance correction for woofer inductance etcetera. This is the hobby, and the outcome depends on your skill. And you find that it is not very critical sometimes. The perfect can be the enemy of the good.

 

[Mrcloc]

Nice to see another Visaton 2-way build. Steve helped me a lot. What Lojzek says about these drivers doing well in a large sealed enclosure is good advice. What I found is that these drivers are listed as woofers for a reason. They don't do midrange as well as they say. I believe in flattening the woofer's impedance with resistor and capacitor.

As for the Alto II, the crossover doesn't look sufficient - it can be better. My 2-way W170S+SC10N has very tight bass (or defined, should I say).

A suggestion could be to use a full-range driver for a tweeter, like the B80. Something like attached to show what could be done. Inner dimensions of box: 85x19x27 cm, sealed. I'm not any expert, so I'm sure there are issues with the crossover, but if you went this direction, perhaps this is a starting point.

At some point you have to just get on with it.

 

[rrmitko]

If you have a promising equivalent driver, we can look at what adjustments might be good.

Hello,
I apologize for reviving this topic again. I have these Visaton W 200 S woofers now and Technics EAS-6HH11S horn tweeters, but I have trouble making the crossover for them. The boxes are 20 liters with bass reflex(140mm),made from 18mm MDF.I would be really grateful if you could help me

 

[system7]

What's the holdup?

Where have you got to so far?

FWIW, one of mine built with tagstrip on a wooden base:

Looks like my usual sort of thing.

 

[rrmitko]

Boxes are doneI'm using other drivers with a purchased crossover at the moment, but they sound awful. I think they're midrange drivers, not woofers . That's why I ordered a Visaton w200s.I was able to find some info for the tweeter but it's 8ohm.Maybe I should by new tweeters?

 

[system7]

All looks very good to me. You seem to know wher you are going on this.

The box looks about right for 20L reflex. The big vent looks just like the WLM La Scala which is the W200S-4 ohm unit IIRC:

I'm running this monster crossover in one of my 8" plus 1" Morel CAT298 soft dome speakers:

Impedance corrected. Nice.

I got the idea from one of the old Rogers Monitors on Mark Hennessey's speaker pages.
Hi-Fi › Rogers Loudspeakers

But really, it's not that hard.

This ought to work well enough:

That's the 92mm faceplate Monacor HT-22/8, which is cheap as chips. Better than the Visaton TW70 IMO. I find 8" 88dB woofers on that generic circuit interchangeable. More detail here: Restoring Monitor Audio R300 bookshelf speakers.

You can model all this stuff in Boxsim with the cone TW70 or the soft dome G20SC as typical sorts of tweeters: Software | Visaton

With a dome tweeter, level resistor plus 3.3uF/0.2mH/10uF can't be far off. Negative polarity. The bass section might be any old coil above 1mH and a 7.5R (10W ceramic) /4.7uF shunt. The bigger coil gets you a more bassy sound. I like to shunt a dome tweeter with RC Zobel, 7.5R + 0.33uF. Takes away the brightness. You can probably modify that existing crossover to do this.

Oh, I could add your tweeter is 100dB, so will need a lot of attenuation. The corrugated surround bass might be OK, but ought to be about 90dB. I actually like those PA-type woofers. Often have a lively sound if a bit bass light.

 

[rrmitko]

Thanks for the information SteveI can do the boxes but designing a crossover is other story I like this Monacor HT-22/8 tweeter and this crossover should work for me as well

 

[system7]

I don't think you'll go far wrong with that circuit. You don't need any exotic components. That bass coil you have already might work well enough. 250V polypropylene capacitors. 10W ceramic resistors.

Cone tweeters are quite directional, and sound best on-axis, but have a sweet sound.

I don't know what Country you inhabit, so can't comment on availability. A 40W soldering iron and some lead-free solder are essential. Solder fast, get in and out in about 5 seconds having cleaned and scraped the contacts. If it's not working, let it cool and come back later, because plastic film capacitors don't like too much heat. Coils and resistors are tough as old boots.

I start to think that seen one 8" bass, you've seen them all. The Visaton W200S is a competent reflex unit. Not the last word in revealing, but OK. For closed box, around 0.5 Qts, this SEAS P21RE/P polycone is very nice in the Falcon Acoustics sale.
Seas P21RE/P H0942-08 Woofer. H0313 2015 remake

8" plus 1" speakers are not very critical to build. Everything works well enough on a 3kHz negative polarity crossover. The only variable is tweeter level, set by varying that 3.3R resistor, which is often a matter of taste. I just got interested in cone tweeters at some stage. Very retro.

 

[rrmitko]

I have few more coils and lots of capacitors donated from friend.That Seas woofer looks really good for the price. I live in Basildon, Essex ��Nothing wrong with the retro,belive or not I'm still listening cassette tapes and make records on them��

 

[system7]

I seem to recall that Basildon, Essex is the most typical English Constituency. Whatever Basildon thinks is what the Country thinks.

Me, I'm a bit confused about everything right now. Everybody is telling me what I think about the whole "Brexit" issue. Apparently I never voted for "No Deal".

All deeply confusing. We just retire to good music played on decent speakers. Pleasure talking to you.

Tell us how you get on.