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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

Visaton W200S + TW70
Visaton W200S + TW70
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Old 12th January 2018, 11:00 PM   #21
robert1111 is offline robert1111
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But what about the ht-22. It is only 10W rms. If I cross it around 2000 hz. I copied the MAX SPL graph from boxsim. But Im not sure if I understand it right. Does that mean, it is comfortable at same power levels as the W200s?
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File Type: jpg W200s HT22.jpg (602.3 KB, 169 views)
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Old 12th January 2018, 11:17 PM   #22
robert1111 is offline robert1111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by system7 View Post
I can't see a good reason NOT to use Boxsim.

With the nominally 4 ohm W200S, the series filter looks promising. I happen to have the 8 ohm version (6 ohms DCR).

A fourth order filter on the 7 ohm TW70 tweeter and some impedance correction on a second order bass looks good too. I have built something close to this circuit and it sounds very good. Substituting the 6 ohm Monacor HT-22, which is a better sounding tweeter IMO, hardly needs any adjustment. You might give it a slightly more rising top end to allow for the fact it is flatter than the TW70.
Yes, been reading all of your posts that I could find about those drivers. Tried to simulate the crossovers etc. I would like to cross them somewhere around 2000 hz. Mainly because the designer himself told that the tw70 should be crossed over before 3000 hz, because it sounds best. He did not say exactly where, just before. It was in some german forum. And the 2000-2500 region seems to come out every time I try something new. But Im still not quite sure, if I should be satisfied with the phase response. I have no experience, and every post in here I see has better phase, and every build I look in the Visaton boxsim project site, is worse.
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Old 13th January 2018, 04:29 PM   #23
gfiandy is offline gfiandy  United Kingdom
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I thought I would see what happens if you combine your initial crossover with the HT22 as suggested. I scanned the file into Vituix CAD from the files I created for the W200S and found some measurements from a foreign language site where they had measure the HT22 you can see the source files below as well as the simulation with your existing crossover. As suggested it comes out a bit brighter.


I will see if I can find a smother solution.
Attached Images
File Type: png W200S-4 0dB 2.83 eff.PNG (59.4 KB, 154 views)
File Type: png w200s-4.PNG (196.5 KB, 154 views)
File Type: png HT22 axial.PNG (409.0 KB, 154 views)
File Type: png HT22 Z.PNG (250.1 KB, 152 views)
File Type: png W200S HT22.PNG (263.7 KB, 24 views)
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Old 13th January 2018, 05:25 PM   #24
gfiandy is offline gfiandy  United Kingdom
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Had a bit of a play. This is the best I have come up with. However it currently includes no baffle simulation or box simulation. My concern with this is it pushes the HT22 really hard but if you don't you get a large variance in the off axis response as the dispersion pattern goes from Narrow to wide at the Woofer to tweeter crossover.
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File Type: png W200S HT22 V1.PNG (262.7 KB, 41 views)

Last edited by gfiandy; 13th January 2018 at 05:34 PM.
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Old 13th January 2018, 07:12 PM   #25
robert1111 is offline robert1111
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Hey. I did make a simulation with ht22. The last picture is ht22. Not a frequency graph, but max spl, I don't know how to read it. I also made vituixcad simulation with graph from boxsim (w200s), and added the manufacturer graph of ht22. I know it is still labeled as tw70. I just couldnt get a better phase and frequency good enough, so I havent posted those yet, because I'm not satisfied.
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Old 13th January 2018, 07:52 PM   #26
gfiandy is offline gfiandy  United Kingdom
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Sorry I did not intend to upset you. I will leave you to get on.
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Old 13th January 2018, 10:44 PM   #27
robert1111 is offline robert1111
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Nono, I'm not upset. I just tried to explain what I have been doing so you guys don't think I'm not interested enought. You are are very helpful, and I thank you for that.
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Old 14th January 2018, 01:20 PM   #28
gfiandy is offline gfiandy  United Kingdom
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robert1111 View Post
But what about the ht-22. It is only 10W rms. If I cross it around 2000 hz. I copied the MAX SPL graph from boxsim. But Im not sure if I understand it right. Does that mean, it is comfortable at same power levels as the W200s?

The MAX SPL graph is derived from the linear excursion entered for the tweeter. I could not find any data for the HT22 linear excursion. Where did you get the data from and what did you enter. A typical value for a cone tweeter would be 0.25mm but I have no idea what the HT22 actually does.


If you have entered correct linear excursion then your reading of the graph is correct the tweeter has close to the same excursion limit as the bass driver.


Excursion limit is not the same as the power limit as you can see the tweeter will be subject to an instantaneous power of 100W. So the tweeter will be able to deal with the anticipated excursion however in prolonged use it might still exceed the power limitation as it will over heat or the current at 100W might cause the tweeter wire to fuse.

Last edited by gfiandy; 14th January 2018 at 01:41 PM.
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Old 24th January 2018, 05:27 PM   #29
system7 is offline system7  United Kingdom
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I've built many versions of the 8 inch plus 2" cone tweeter over the years. I've done second order around 2.5kHz, but it sounds a bit distorted to me.

I've also tried some notches on the bass around 6kHz, but again, find them fatiguing and hard.

I can't see any reason to use a 4 ohm bass. Why give your amp a difficult load?

This sort of thing is incredibly simple, but sounds good. Should work with almost any well behaved 8 inch 8 ohm paper bass. The TW70 and HT-22 are almost interchangeable on filter. Just adjust level to taste. The negative polarity around 3.5kHz crossover is just a great BBC trick that makes everything fall into place.

A very good speaker. Good enough that I can hardly justify doing any more work on it. Enjoying Chris Rea tonight. "Looking for the Summer."
Attached Images
File Type: png S7 8 inch bass plus HT22.PNG (18.1 KB, 52 views)
File Type: png S7 8 inch bass plus HT22 circuit.PNG (7.3 KB, 99 views)
File Type: jpg Modified_MA-R300MD_HT22-8.jpg (79.0 KB, 107 views)
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Old 25th January 2018, 02:56 AM   #30
Joel Wesseling is offline Joel Wesseling  Canada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by system7 View Post
I've built many versions of the 8 inch plus 2" cone tweeter over the years. I've done second order around 2.5kHz, but it sounds a bit distorted to me.

I've also tried some notches on the bass around 6kHz, but again, find them fatiguing and hard.

I can't see any reason to use a 4 ohm bass. Why give your amp a difficult load?

This sort of thing is incredibly simple, but sounds good. Should work with almost any well behaved 8 inch 8 ohm paper bass. The TW70 and HT-22 are almost interchangeable on filter. Just adjust level to taste. The negative polarity around 3.5kHz crossover is just a great BBC trick that makes everything fall into place.

A very good speaker. Good enough that I can hardly justify doing any more work on it. Enjoying Chris Rea tonight. "Looking for the Summer."
That woofer doesn't appear to be W200S. Maybe older version or something?

I did box sims with a few Visaton 8 inch, and W200s looks nice with only mild rise towards 100hz in approx 20 -25L box, and goes pretty low, so i like that one, but Solen doesn't carry it.

Just wondering because maybe it could be a different model that works well around 100Hz in 20 -25L
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