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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

Opinions on Pairing Satori MW19PNW-8/AMTPRO-4?
Opinions on Pairing Satori MW19PNW-8/AMTPRO-4?
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Old 6th January 2018, 02:13 AM   #21
glenv6 is offline glenv6  United States
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Originally Posted by TNT View Post
eee MW16P-4 was the driver I had i mind.

//
No worries, I think the MW19 is going to work out really well.
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Old 6th January 2018, 04:13 AM   #22
LineSource is offline LineSource  United States
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Originally Posted by glenv6 View Post
If the AMTPRO-4 doesn't work out, I may end up with a Satori tweeter instead.
The $52 SB_Acoustics SB29RDC-4 dome tweeter measures similar to the more expensive Satori cloth-dome tweeters, and will blend well with the MW19P midbass. Troels designed his crossover for a stepped baffle, and a flat baffle would have a slightly different crossover circuit.

If your amplifier can handle a 5-ohm load, you can experiment in Xsim with the higher efficiency 4-ohm version of the MW19P-4.
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Old 6th January 2018, 04:19 AM   #23
glenv6 is offline glenv6  United States
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Originally Posted by CharlieLaub View Post
The AMTPRO-4 frequency response makes it less than ideal about 10kHz. I attached a measurement I took on a unit that I own, in free air. It might be possible to EQ the response so that you get a smooth transition between the mid-passband level of (on my plot) 105dB and the near 10kHz response level of 100dB - you might want to EQ out the "hump" around 10kHz or it could sound fatiguing. I would probably try this approach with an active DSP crossover, however, because you might need to combine several EQ bands to get it right.

The AMPPRO-4 also has a rather "tall" diaphragm for a tweeter. The size of the diaphragm is especially a problem in the vertical plane, where the response pattern starts to narrow starting at 4kHz. You can use it as low as 1.5-1.8kHz (it will need a back enclosure). If you add a small dome tweeter (e.g. Ox20?) crossed over at 5-7kHz you will get better overall performance from 5kHz to 20kHz.

On the plus side, the distortion signature is pretty clean and efficiency is high. It's a good driver when used in a way that minimizes some of the response issues.

Note: If you have advanced hearing loss you might not notice the issues above 5kHz I mentioned since these are getting near the edge of your ability.
Thanks for the info - Do you like the way they sound? Some of the quotes I read about these stated, "electrostatic" qualities. Is that accurate?

That big bump around 10K does concern me, but I thought I would hear them before deciding if that peak makes them tiring to listen to before trying to flatten it out, or build a passband filter to cross them with another tweeter. If they prove more trouble than their worth, I'll just move on to another tweeter to pair with the MW19.

Question about the software DSP listed on your webpage. I went the Odroid C2 route for music file (FLAC) streaming. Are you aware of an ecasound build for that SMB? I don't really have time to get into software DSP now, but as a future project I am intrigued.
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Old 6th January 2018, 04:31 AM   #24
glenv6 is offline glenv6  United States
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Originally Posted by LineSource View Post
The $52 SB_Acoustics SB29RDC-4 dome tweeter measures similar to the more expensive Satori cloth-dome tweeters, and will blend well with the MW19P midbass. Troels designed his crossover for a stepped baffle, and a flat baffle would have a slightly different crossover circuit.

If your amplifier can handle a 5-ohm load, you can experiment in Xsim with the higher efficiency 4-ohm version of the MW19P-4.
Too late, I already ordered the 8 ohm version of the MW19. I think that should work better with my gainclone or the old Sumo Polaris I have from new.

That SB_Acoustics driver would be a relatively inexpensive route if the AMTPRO doesn't work out. My strategy will be to build the enclosures before the crossovers so that I can get better measurements for the crossover design. I like the idea of a stepped baffle as Troels designed, but I was thinking a spherical enclosure for the AMTPRO-4 might be cool to experiment with.
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Old 7th January 2018, 12:50 AM   #25
LineSource is offline LineSource  United States
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Originally Posted by glenv6 View Post
I was thinking a spherical enclosure for the AMTPRO-4 might be cool to experiment with.
Big Rounds
I like the "Juke-Box" style for a desktop 2way MW19P-4 + SB29RDC-4.

What do you think about a "Stretched Kii" style for a 2way with your long AMT? Side woofers optional.

A dipole similar to the Hestia V looks like a good fit for the Dayton AMTPRO-4 tweeter, especially with DSP crossovers and equalization to boost 10kHz+ like the Linkwitz LX 521.

New Build: The Hestia V
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File Type: jpg BigRounds.jpg (81.6 KB, 138 views)
File Type: jpg Hestia V x1.jpg (50.5 KB, 120 views)
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Old 7th January 2018, 02:59 AM   #26
TMM is offline TMM  Australia
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Some people won't want to hear this but I think the Satori MW19PNW is better suited to a 3-way than a 2-way. The peak-dip in frequency response and bump in impedance at around 1.5kHz is a cone resonance. If it is anything like other drivers from SEAS and Peerless that have cone resonances around 1kHz then non-linear distortion will also be higher there. On budget drivers is isn't much concern because the non linear distortion from the motor usually swamps it, so you just have to deal with the non-flat frequency response. On a driver like the Satori it should really be crossed below 1kHz if you are chasing world-class performance. Happy to be proven wrong on my theory if anyone has measurement data of the MW19.

Last edited by TMM; 7th January 2018 at 03:03 AM.
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Old 7th January 2018, 04:02 AM   #27
glenv6 is offline glenv6  United States
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Originally Posted by LineSource View Post
Big Rounds
I like the "Juke-Box" style for a desktop 2way MW19P-4 + SB29RDC-4.

What do you think about a "Stretched Kii" style for a 2way with your long AMT? Side woofers optional.

A dipole similar to the Hestia V looks like a good fit for the Dayton AMTPRO-4 tweeter, especially with DSP crossovers and equalization to boost 10kHz+ like the Linkwitz LX 521.

New Build: The Hestia V
I think I would like to stay with a spherical configuration for this build. I envision it would look something like the Jukebox to house just the Satori high up in the spherical area, then house the AMTPRO-4 in a separate sphere perched on top of the jukebox.

Coming up with that spherical shape is going to be a challenge. One option would be to create the AMTPRO sphere using fiberglass with internal wood bracing. The bass cab could be a traditional MDF cabinet with an added stack of MDF on top that is machined to the final spherical shape. Or I could try to vacuum bag birch ply into a spherical shape and mate that to the rest of the cabinet somehow. Perhaps machined aluminum could be used, but that might cost a small fortune.

I am tempted to try using a minidsp to provide flexibility to experiment with different crossover configurations. That and a couple of inexpensive chip amps from Parts Express.
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Old 7th January 2018, 04:10 AM   #28
CharlieLaub is offline CharlieLaub  United States
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Originally Posted by TMM View Post
Some people won't want to hear this but I think the Satori MW19PNW is better suited to a 3-way than a 2-way. The peak-dip in frequency response and bump in impedance at around 1.5kHz is a cone resonance. If it is anything like other drivers from SEAS and Peerless that have cone resonances around 1kHz then non-linear distortion will also be higher there. On budget drivers is isn't much concern because the non linear distortion from the motor usually swamps it, so you just have to deal with the non-flat frequency response. On a driver like the Satori it should really be crossed below 1kHz if you are chasing world-class performance. Happy to be proven wrong on my theory if anyone has measurement data of the MW19.
I haven't measured this exact driver, but I have measured the MR13P-4, another Satori driver (5" nominal diameter). I did this while suspending the driver in free air about 2m above the ground in a large room with high ceilings. I could get about 50Hz resolution this way, and was testing for open baffle use. I measured several angles in the horizontal plane, both to the front and rear. I found a narrow resonance at 1.5kHz that showed up in the frequency response differently to the front and rear and produced a big spike in the 3rd order harmonic distortion. I did not measure IMD at this frequency so I am not sure about how that would be affected, but it probably is (that's my guess at least). For the price of the MR13P-4 and hype about the Satori line I was not all that impressed by what I found.

I am attaching some data that you might find interesting. After testing I sold off my pair and went with another driver that did not have the FR irregularities I found, which would probably be hidden if the measurement had lower resolution...
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Old 7th January 2018, 04:12 AM   #29
glenv6 is offline glenv6  United States
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Originally Posted by TMM View Post
Some people won't want to hear this but I think the Satori MW19PNW is better suited to a 3-way than a 2-way. The peak-dip in frequency response and bump in impedance at around 1.5kHz is a cone resonance. If it is anything like other drivers from SEAS and Peerless that have cone resonances around 1kHz then non-linear distortion will also be higher there. On budget drivers is isn't much concern because the non linear distortion from the motor usually swamps it, so you just have to deal with the non-flat frequency response. On a driver like the Satori it should really be crossed below 1kHz if you are chasing world-class performance. Happy to be proven wrong on my theory if anyone has measurement data of the MW19.
You may be right about the MW19PNW being better suited to a 3-way, however I called Madisound and the tech I talked to seemed to think that driver would be fine crossed at upwards of 2K second order or greater. Troels Gravesen used a similar driver crossed at 1750hz in these MW19P-8
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Old 7th January 2018, 09:38 AM   #30
Bill poster is offline Bill poster  Thailand
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It just depends how fussy you are about the cone resonance. Its the same reason the mw16 usually gets crossed quite low.
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