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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

Zaph|Audio SB12.3, slight redesign
Zaph|Audio SB12.3, slight redesign
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Old 17th December 2017, 12:25 AM   #1
smithie is offline smithie  United Kingdom
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Default Zaph|Audio SB12.3, slight redesign

hi everyone
ive seriously been thinking of building these speakers in the new year..
Zaph|Audio - SB12.3 3-Way Tower

https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.co...e-3-way/#tab-3.
i dont know if anyone has built any,if so it would be nice to hear some input on them,more so if anyone has actually heard a pair.
any way i think we can mostly agree there not to pretty to look at which eventually brings me to the crux of this post.
im thinking of building them in the vein of some atc style speakers....please see my walt disney quick sketches below compared to the original offerings..
now my questions are to the people that know about such things are..
1)by doing away with the original lower front part of the baffle under the 12 inch driver (around 7.5 inches) will i be screwing up the baffle step/cross over function compared to how the original was made to function?
2)if im lucky enough to get away with xover problems from question one then will the original width front baffle that i have showing in my mickey mouse sketches protruding by about 2 inches be enough not to effect the original xover function where ive had to make the enclosure bigger behind it to make up the lost volume(in case you havent noticed...i really dont want to get into sorting out or changing the designers xover and hard work)
any help/views or advice is as always appricated.
regards
Attached Images
File Type: jpg sb12.3.jpg (93.9 KB, 525 views)
File Type: jpg P1050500.jpg (246.2 KB, 521 views)
File Type: jpg P1050501.jpg (208.1 KB, 513 views)
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Old 17th December 2017, 01:01 AM   #2
eriksquires is offline eriksquires  United States
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Anytime you mess with the baffle you end up with different baffle step issues. There are a number of simulators. I like to use The Edge, but others don't.

I suggest what you do is grab a simulator and try out the two designs, and look at the resulting FR. If the changes are minor, and away from the crossover regions you are golden.

May I suggest, if you are going for short, tilt upwards about 10 degrees. This will reduce the amount that the tweeter/mids bounce off the floor.

Best,

E
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Old 17th December 2017, 07:35 AM   #3
Juhazi is offline Juhazi  Finland
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In mys eyes and experience with The Edge - baffle size changes are minimal acooustically. But if it really sits on the floor without stands, it (at least the baffle) should be tilted like eriksquires says.
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Old 17th December 2017, 08:14 AM   #4
sharpi31 is offline sharpi31  United Kingdom
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Zaph|Audio SB12.3, slight redesign
Tilting the baffle will move the mids & tweeter backwards relative to the woofer - I’d check the impact on time alignment first
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Old 17th December 2017, 08:52 AM   #5
Juhazi is offline Juhazi  Finland
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Change in distance in not significant, the xo is 250Hz. And design axis remains unchanged relative to listening axis.

Here s the design story Zaph|Audio - SB12.3 3-Way Tower
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Old 17th December 2017, 10:28 AM   #6
smithie is offline smithie  United Kingdom
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hi guys
many thanks for all your replies and take on what im aiming for....also a big thank you for not bashing my highly detailed and accurate drawings.
maybe what's not so clear with my iffy drawings is that my design will be at the same height regarding drivers and position as per the original design,the height will be made up with a base and central leg that's fixed to the speaker cabinet.
so the distance of the 12" inch driver to the floor will be the same as original concept,what will be missing of course is that last bit of 16" by 7.5 front baffle that normally sits under the 12" driver.
so with that in mind i wouldn't of thought there would be any need to " tilt" my design back,i can understand that reason if it was sitting lower on the floor,but my design won't be(will be same height as original),but i certainly realise my iffy bad drawings gave that impression.
i really appreciate all the help,more so as i certainly know nothing of speaker building or xover tweaking or designing and the reason im posting here and ask for help/views.
so with the positioning and height cleared up regarding my new shape design do we feel that getting rid of that 16" by 7.5" piece of front baffle that sits under the original designs 12" speaker will totally screw up this speakers design sound wise and xover design wise
kind regards
paul
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Old 17th December 2017, 10:49 AM   #7
Juhazi is offline Juhazi  Finland
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Nothing serious happens, if internal volume of bass compartment is same. If it gets smaller, you will loose a tiny bit of low end sensitivity and F3/F10 limit, but I doubt if that is significant in normal size rooms. The box is sealed type.

ps. Thanks to Zaph, I learned A LOT- recommended to study his homepage!
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Old 17th December 2017, 10:57 AM   #8
smithie is offline smithie  United Kingdom
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Juhazi View Post
Nothing serious happens, if nternal volume of bass compartment is same. If it gets smaller, you will loose a tiny bit of low end sensitivity and F3/F10 limit, but I doubt if that is significant in normal size rooms. The box is sealed type.

ps. Thanks to Zaph, I learned A LOT- recommended to study his homepage!
hi
many thanks for your reply,i also understand about volume within the sealed cabinet,when i start knocking up more detailed sketches of the final design with size measurements im hoping to design it so i keep the internal volume as recommended,once again i appreciate the help and input.
regards
paul
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Old 17th December 2017, 10:16 PM   #9
LineSource is offline LineSource  United States
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If you LOVE the ATC cabinet style, you could look for a well reviewed 3-speaker, 3-way design which fits that shape and volume. It is desirable to have the tweeter around 36-39" high. Good ear level, and then typical tweeter dispersion also covers standing listeners. A SEALED 4cuft volume for the 12" SB34NRX75-6 delivers -F3 ~35Hz with SPL ~87db after a modest baffle step. Replacing the two 5" midrange with one 6" is a better match for the ATC cabinet.

1.1" Dome SB29RDC-4
6" Satori MW16P-8 or lower cost SB17NRX35-8
12" woofer SB34NRX75-6

There are several free designs using the SB29RDC-4 tweeter and SB17NRX35-8 or MW16P-8 midranges to which you can add the 12" SB34NRX75-6 woofer. An LR2 electrical circuit works well because the Le=1.8mH for the SB34NRX75-6. I can post examples if you go down this path.
You can also Bi-Amp with an active crossover for the woofer. For the best sound, the crossover must be tuned to the baffle shape, woofer height, and room placement.

Meniscus Audio has a few 2-way kits like Jeff Bagby' Adelphos and Mandolin, plus Jeff's write-up on extending them to 3-way by adding a woofer.
What is your budget for raw speakers + crossover parts?
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Old 18th December 2017, 09:38 AM   #10
smithie is offline smithie  United Kingdom
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LineSource View Post
If you LOVE the ATC cabinet style, you could look for a well reviewed 3-speaker, 3-way design which fits that shape and volume. It is desirable to have the tweeter around 36-39" high. Good ear level, and then typical tweeter dispersion also covers standing listeners. A SEALED 4cuft volume for the 12" SB34NRX75-6 delivers -F3 ~35Hz with SPL ~87db after a modest baffle step. Replacing the two 5" midrange with one 6" is a better match for the ATC cabinet.

1.1" Dome SB29RDC-4
6" Satori MW16P-8 or lower cost SB17NRX35-8
12" woofer SB34NRX75-6

There are several free designs using the SB29RDC-4 tweeter and SB17NRX35-8 or MW16P-8 midranges to which you can add the 12" SB34NRX75-6 woofer. An LR2 electrical circuit works well because the Le=1.8mH for the SB34NRX75-6. I can post examples if you go down this path.
You can also Bi-Amp with an active crossover for the woofer. For the best sound, the crossover must be tuned to the baffle shape, woofer height, and room placement.

Meniscus Audio has a few 2-way kits like Jeff Bagby' Adelphos and Mandolin, plus Jeff's write-up on extending them to 3-way by adding a woofer.
What is your budget for raw speakers + crossover parts?
hi linesource
thanks for the heads up and ideas.
i really have no understanding of xovers/baffle steps etc,you make it sound so easy by adding this and that,but from reading up i know how techincal/black art it can be....hence why i was drawn to a complete sorted kit that fits most of my wants and needs.
did have a quick look at those kits mentioned,and very good they seem to,but im really after a 3way sealed design rather then a 2way plus sub type deal....done plenty of those in the past.
saw the ribbon atc style clone speaker,that looked very nice(do love a good ribbon) but the drivers being used would put the cost of the total speaker way out side my budget...the price of this kit once done and built will be expensive enough to me,but obviously if a big step up in sound quality can be had for spending a little more then im sure ill find the extra budget to achieve that.
please feel free to put up links etc to other ideas/kits/threads etc,i have been looking/reading up on this for a while,but im in no doubt that ive also probably missed heaps of great useful stuff and possible candidates and now is a good time to expose my failings before i start spending some real money.
once again i appreciate all and everybody's input/take and ideas.
kind regards
paul
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