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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

How to Make a New Wave Biradial Horn
How to Make a New Wave Biradial Horn
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Old 4th December 2017, 01:40 AM   #21
Jack Arnott is offline Jack Arnott  United States
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Originally Posted by Patrick Bateman View Post
Here's the waveguide that you get if you use four cones instead of four hemisphere.
I donít get this one. Can you post this back a step before you truncate it?
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Old 4th December 2017, 02:06 AM   #22
Soldermizer is offline Soldermizer  United States
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"Patrick" I am always fascinated by your speculations, 3D modelling and (sometimes) even testing results Perhaps in the future we will not just design audio and other stuff in 3D, but like in a Sci-Fi story, we will able to digitize ourselves and listen to a modeled audio system in a simulated room in a simulated universe
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Old 4th December 2017, 04:13 AM   #23
ICG is offline ICG  Germany
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Originally Posted by Patrick Bateman View Post
The thing that got me interested in the progressive transition waveguides was that they combined the incredible polar response of an oblate spheroidal waveguide, but with superior impulse response.

IE, if you want absolutely stellar polars, it's difficult to beat an OS waveguide. For instance, I've never measured anything that has better polars than the big QSC waveguide.

I built a LeCleach horn a few years ago and it had excellent impulse response. But the PT waveguides seem to be a mix of both: excellent polars and excellent impulse response.
You say 'impulse response'. Do you mean frequency response by that? A lot of biradial horns are not linear, they usually dip more and more to the upper end. Not all but especally with horns which start to load at low frequencys and work over a very wide frequency range do. That's usually the trade-off you have to pay. To counter that, the horn can be shortened, which leads to constructions like the JBL Progressive Transition Waveguide (or Dayton copy of it). They work excellent but got also a trade-off, the gain is much lower. With modern drivers that's usually not a problem, especally if you use them for HiFi at home, PA use can be different though.

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Originally Posted by Patrick Bateman View Post
As for why I 3D print them, well that's because I like Synergy Horns!
I know. 3d printing is in many cases ideal for that in development. Well, how much would it cost for you to print a bi-radial horn with a cut off frequency of, let's say, 1200-1500Hz? I'd really like to build a kinda clone of one of the JBL bi-radial monitors like the JBL 4430.
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Old 4th December 2017, 01:13 PM   #24
phase_accurate is offline phase_accurate
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You can still see 2344 biradials pop up on e-bay once in a while. It's the same thing for the 2235 woofers, although they often need servicing. But recone kits are still available for those.

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Charles
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Old 4th December 2017, 03:30 PM   #25
ICG is offline ICG  Germany
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You can still see 2344 biradials pop up on e-bay once in a while.
No, you don't. At least not in europe. And if they do once in a decade, they want a kidney and a heart for it.

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It's the same thing for the 2235 woofers, although they often need servicing. But recone kits are still available for those.
Yes, you can get them but they are still very expensive. TBH, there are much better mid/bass drivers you can get nowadays for a lot less money, I don't see the 2235 as that legendary and irreplacable, just because there's the JBL label on it and they are 'vintage'. And because you can get the better, more recent woofers new, they are then in a excellent condition, which is doubtful for most 2235. Well, I don't mind reconing or some optical flaws, I just don't see why I should pay more for something which does not give me any benefit sound wise. I thank you for your suggestions, it's just not what I want. I don't want to build a 4430 with old drivers and horn and a new enclosure, my goal is to build a clone, a speaker with most of the characteristics and for a more reasonable price.
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Old 4th December 2017, 04:11 PM   #26
phase_accurate is offline phase_accurate
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So which 15" driver would you suggest ? The advantage of the 2235 was that it is midway between a HiFi driver and a PA driver. It canbe tuned quite low and used up to approx 1 kHz. There are not many of these nowadays and those that are I would not call cheap. And most of the cheap ones go quite low but not very high or quite high but not low. The new variant of the Beyma Studio woofer does look interesting but it doesn't have a lot of x-max.

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Old 4th December 2017, 05:15 PM   #27
ICG is offline ICG  Germany
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If you are talking about the JBL 2235 and what's comparable, you should not complain about a low Xmax, it only got +-3mm pure geometrically, (coil height-pole plate) / 2. In praxis it can do more, but so do most drivers. Damage starts at 11mm excursion (Xdmg 22mm peak to peak), so that's not an excursion monster at all.

There are few drivers, that's true, but there are some. One of them is the Celestion TF1525, nice midrange, practically resonance free in the usable rane (-> Test Selbstbauprojekt - Monacor K+T Klonwall - Bildergalerie - Bild 9) and the best part is, you can get them for 105Ä (Thomann or Strassacker i.e. over here in Germany). There are others but that would be my first choice.
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Old 4th December 2017, 05:56 PM   #28
badman is offline badman  United States
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If you are talking about the JBL 2235 and what's comparable, you should not complain about a low Xmax, it only got +-3mm pure geometrically, (coil height-pole plate) / 2. In praxis it can do more, but so do most drivers. Damage starts at 11mm excursion (Xdmg 22mm peak to peak), so that's not an excursion monster at all.

There are few drivers, that's true, but there are some. One of them is the Celestion TF1525, nice midrange, practically resonance free in the usable rane (-> Test Selbstbauprojekt - Monacor K+T Klonwall - Bildergalerie - Bild 9) and the best part is, you can get them for 105Ä (Thomann or Strassacker i.e. over here in Germany). There are others but that would be my first choice.
That looks like a good budget choice but it's not at all up to the standards of the 2235h, which offers a much more robust bottom end, with 6mm one direction mathematical, not sure where you pulled 3 from, and is usable to reasonable LF in a reasonable box size. The celestion requires a much larger box for any reasonable vented tuning, and doesn't work sealed in realistic enclosures.

The very flat celestion published curve is almost certainly a poor reflection of reality- the waterfall on your link shows a substantial rising response which is much more likely.

I agree with the assessment that the 2235h prices are an absurdity though. Better results could be had for less money with a number of drivers, though you might have to add weight to drop the efficiency and Fs down in many cases (the 2235h uses a pro-style motor with a ring to add mass).
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Old 4th December 2017, 08:23 PM   #29
ICG is offline ICG  Germany
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That looks like a good budget choice but it's not at all up to the standards of the 2235h, which offers a much more robust bottom end, with 6mm one direction mathematical, not sure where you pulled 3 from, and is usable to reasonable LF in a reasonable box size. The celestion requires a much larger box for any reasonable vented tuning, and doesn't work sealed in realistic enclosures.
Well, there are different Xmax out there and most are exaggerated. JBL adds 10 up to about 45% in some cases on their datasheet specs depending on model, use (hint: car subwoofers) and year, compared to the strict mathematical value. I admit my Xmax might be wrong because of rounding errors, I got mine data from a german forum. Do you have any information about the winding height and pole plate thickness?

The Celestion is ofcourse not a direct replacement but it's so much better in the midrange than the JBL which got a lot resonances and delayed decay. I don't mind the enclosure size and I've got already 4 150l 15" subs, so if it's not deep enough, I could use them. But I doubt I'd need that, 40-45Hz is low enough - for me - and I would use/plan them fullrange anyway.

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The very flat celestion published curve is almost certainly a poor reflection of reality- the waterfall on your link shows a substantial rising response which is much more likely.
Yes, a rising response is normal. I don't claim Celestions (or most other manufacturers) published measurements are reliable, there are a lot of professionally made measurements available, i.e. from the magazines Hobby Hifi and Klang+Ton (German). For me the most important thing is the extremely clean midrange regarding response, decay and distortion and that's something exceptional, even three to four times more expensive drivers rarely deliver all three combined - and that's what makes the Celestion a rather good choice for a 2-Way 15" speaker.

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Originally Posted by badman View Post
I agree with the assessment that the 2235h prices are an absurdity though. Better results could be had for less money with a number of drivers, though you might have to add weight to drop the efficiency and Fs down in many cases (the 2235h uses a pro-style motor with a ring to add mass).
That's the wrong way to go for a 2 way. Added weight is poison for the midrange. You don't need it to reduce the level either because if it's not that deep, you don't have to reduce the level that far. In the bass the level is lower anyway, that's the reason you can't use the full spl of a potent 15" if you're using it fullrange. In the midrange the reduction done by the crossover.

The 2235h does not have a ring to add mass in the recone kit - which would be required to be included. I think you confuse it with the centering alignment helping shims. These shims/tube is inserted over the pole core to grant perfect alignment while the reconing and is removed in the second last step before the dustcap is glued on.

See, I'm not saying the 2235h is a bad driver, it's built for a different purpose, to allow smaller enclosures and go deeper. To me, the midrange is much more important and I prefer to trade some Hz of the lower end for a higher spl, 2dB more is a lot of power if I might get the weird idea I have to go tube or something like that. And if it's not deep enough I could still use my subs. My preferences and priorities maybe are just weighted differently.
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Old 4th December 2017, 10:15 PM   #30
gedlee is offline gedlee  United States
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Badman

Are you saying that JBL added a mass ring to the moving part of the cone? That's pretty rare.

ICG

I don't see why adding a mass ring would degrade the midrange. Care to explain.
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