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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

room treatment - how to
room treatment - how to
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Old 9th November 2017, 07:22 PM   #1
yoke is offline yoke  Croatia
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Default room treatment - how to

Hi all
I'm at the end of diy journey (like it's ever gonna end ), and as I see only thing left is to make some room treatment for better room acoustics
but have no idea where to start
what to do

my apartment is small, as you can see from the drawings...total of 43m2
basically it's living space (3,5mx6,2m) open to the kitchen and entry lobby...
with couple windows
and plain concrete walls

right now I have no carpet on the floor or any picture on the wall, it's basicly as in 3D model...

so I need some advice what to do, what to place and where, some bass traps, some diffusers, some paintings
what to read
where to start

here are some plans of my apartment, with loudspeakers in ''red''

and 3d model for better understaning of ''open space''


any advise is appreciated
thanks
Attached Images
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File Type: jpg 3d.jpg (119.6 KB, 244 views)
File Type: jpg stan3D 2007jpeg.jpg (86.2 KB, 243 views)
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Old 9th November 2017, 07:32 PM   #2
yoke is offline yoke  Croatia
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some more pictures of echo room
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File Type: jpg stan2_zpsb23a708d.jpg (31.0 KB, 243 views)
File Type: jpg stan3_zps367a9c12.jpg (27.4 KB, 131 views)
File Type: jpg josipkatalinic_zpse5736d9b.jpg (27.2 KB, 119 views)
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Old 9th November 2017, 07:43 PM   #3
scottjoplin is offline scottjoplin  Wales
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Hello. What problem do you have with the bass?
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Old 9th November 2017, 09:58 PM   #4
jameshillj is online now jameshillj  Australia
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You're really going to have to measure your room to save a lot of trial and error experiments as there's a very different load on the left and right speakers and I think this will not just affect the bass (as Scott mentioned) but the mids too

Interestingly, the right speaker doesn't have a sidewall (apart from the alcove corner) so very little 'first reflections' (no side wall) and your left speaker has a window that also presents lower bass impedance (ie, no bass corner gain but has a close sidewall that might need some absorbtion - perhaps try a blanket/doona with a couple broom handles spaced a bit away from wall surface to see if the effect is desired ...

A curious thing to try - put a blanket/doona/etc over the tv screen when playing some familiar music and see if this effects the sound much - generally, it does, so a purpose built lightweight cover can be easily organized or incorporate a diffuser in that place
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Old 10th November 2017, 03:44 AM   #5
PRR is offline PRR  United States
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Without thinking: I'd want 4 inches (100mm) of fuzz ALL over the three walls of the alcove. You need more total absorption than this, in an all-concrete room this size, and that's a good place for a down-payment. And it has space for thick fuzz which will absorb down to midbass. So will the sofa. But carpet only absorbs the highs. THICK theatrical window drapes can be more broadband but are too expensive for home.

This is James' "blanket over TV" idea taken further, so start with the thickest comforter you can find and hear any difference, to get the idea.

It may tend to be bassy because the concrete will support bass (unlike dry-wall) and thick-enough fluff will be objectionable for a living space. (Mix-studios can give up 20% of room volume for absorption; apartment dwellers can't spare the space.) Electronic EQ may be needed. Maybe only -1 on the Bass knob, though snazzy digital has become too cheap to avoid.

After that: IMHO there's no right answer. The room is not-large and lop-sided. I've worked in worse; hated it.
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Old 10th November 2017, 06:46 AM   #6
yoke is offline yoke  Croatia
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Thank you all...

I just got speakers back from painting, and I'm reworking bass amplifier, so it will take like 2 weeks before I will be able to make some measurements...

can't tell if it's just bass problem that Scott mention, am thinking that I have to do the room treatment in general
I notice that left speaker have a little more bass...but can't tell for shure...will take some more critical listening

So, by your replay and advices it look like I'm #%$#
the room is terrible for audio setup, but...
let's see what I can do...by yours replay ;

- I can place some ''painting'' on the left wall - was thinking about print work (that looks like painting) on a wood frame and some foam or thermal wool ''under'' the painting...

something like on the second picture

I can place one on the left and one on the right wall (one opposite to another) ?

- The other step is to cover TV - well I can place some cloth over it...make some frame and just place it over TV when I'm listening music...that would not be hard to live with


- Will there be any benefit to place some of those wood blocks with different higts, like on third picture, and if, where should I place it ? ( I think I can do it in diy version )

And what software should I use for room measurement ?
I will take some measurement and place results, but as I mention it will take some time

Thanks
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File Type: jpg 56e74c024ce0c1b1d534cd64c400bb68.jpg (96.0 KB, 116 views)
File Type: jpg DSCN4208.jpg (50.8 KB, 125 views)

Last edited by yoke; 10th November 2017 at 07:01 AM.
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Old 10th November 2017, 08:15 AM   #7
jameshillj is online now jameshillj  Australia
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As you mentioned working on your bass amp, you're used to doing diy, so making acoustical filters and diffusers will be well within your grasp - but, it'll probably be new territory unless you're involved with pro-audio, so it'll take a bit of time to sort out a lot of well meaning terms (mine too) when talking about room acoustics

As'PR' mentioned, the uneven room will make things a bit awkward, especially when you get to measuring freq response and the decay times - the best advice I can offer about this is to take your time and only change one thing at a time

One thing I can be a bit more definite about is to make your own absorber panels - the fancy profiled ones are not as effective and not cheap - the 4" thick thermal wool that you mentioned, covered by a decorative acoustically transparent print, can work quite effectively down to maybe 120Hz - you may find that the freq reflected from the close sidewall maybe high enough to use just 2" thick material

The wooden block diffusers (known as Skylines, or 2D Schroeder diffuser) are very useful things indeed but generally, after the bass is sorted

I hope I haven't just added to your confusion ...
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Old 10th November 2017, 08:44 AM   #8
yoke is offline yoke  Croatia
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Thanks James,
Jea, I'm into diy (my whole setup is diy, speakers,amplifiers,dsp...wheel the last dsp is from Tranquilitybass (diyaudio member) , so...

But this room acoustics is new to me...and somehow I feel like it's over my head

so for the start, I will make two ''paintings'' with 2'' fill (like 5cm - thermal wool or something like that) and see the results...

it look like it's gonna be long painful journey

PRR give me push in right direction saying that he worked in worse and he hated it maybe I should buy new apartment

Last edited by yoke; 10th November 2017 at 08:48 AM.
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Old 10th November 2017, 11:31 AM   #9
jameshillj is online now jameshillj  Australia
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So you're used to organizing things - that's good

Improving a room's sound isn't something that happens overnight, ever, even if you throw a lot of money at it like some people do

You've got the main room that's 6 metre by 3.5 with an alcove kitchen plus hall on one side, and an additional doorway to access the bedroom volume - you do have rigid walls but some windows to avoid excessive bass gain - the wall next to the right hand speaker will need some attention, possibly a specific bass trap in the corner depending on what you discover when you measure the room, particularly with just that RHS speaker working - it's uneven, a bit awkward, but do-able without relying on extreme dsp solutions

And it's a particular challenge to get a grasp of this rather contradictory subject called room acoustics - this is the hard part and it takes some time - patience required!

Incidentally, what are your speakers? They look like one of Troels designs but not sure of the 2 bass drivers
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Old 10th November 2017, 01:36 PM   #10
yoke is offline yoke  Croatia
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Thanks James
I have one of those DSP unit Analog-Precision
but I would like to avoid high DSP use for EQ...would like to keep it simple as those loudspeakers play nice with simple second order LR...

The loudspeaker start as Tony Gee and Edgars EVE II SpeakerBuilding.com - The GeerS eVe II, Page 1

But I change twitter to 2904/7000 and add another 21W8555, and adjust twitter/mid bas (18W8545) position as I like it a little lower than the original is made...

basically it's completely new speaker, 3way active ...and active makes things a little easier to work with then the passive solution, especially if you are beginner like me (those were the first speakers I made...and it took me like decade+ to finish them...as I have so little time...and space...and...)
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